Israel deploys nuclear weapons on submarines

phil21 · 06-03-12, 05:16 AM

Just found this:

Quote:

A German shipyard has already built three submarines for Israel, and three more are planned. Now SPIEGEL has learned that Israel is arming the submarines with nuclear-tipped cruise missiles. The German government has known about Israel's nuclear weapons program for decades, despite its official denials

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-836671.html

the complete story is going to be published tomorrow as cover story for the next issue. Could be quiet interesting.
Personally, i'm not really suprised. Though no doubt it's gonna be a big deal over here since Germany is the supplier and our government has heavily subsidized the building of these subs while all the while stating they had no information on nukes on the subs. But really, is anyone suprised they deploy them on subs a second strike capability?

What are your thoughts on this?

Btw: It may seem irrelevant, but it nontheless bothers me: In the picture the sub looks like a Type 212A rather than a Dolphin (planes on the sail instead on the bow like in the other pictures). Is it because it's the AIP equipped updated version or is it just some jounalist putting random sub pics?

Skybird · 06-03-12, 05:49 AM

No news at all, it now is just formally admitted.

The only quarrel I have with Germany delivering them boats is that we always deliver them for almost free or pay a huge ammount of their bill. They could have a dozen boats from us if they want them - but let's pay for the shopping that you are doing, okay?

Catfish · 06-03-12, 05:59 AM

Nuclear boats are much too loud nowadays. The "Dolphin" class is just the 212 type with minor changes. So also, the USA got the fuel cell technology for free, on detour of Israel.
But we will invent something new to put us ahead again -
which we again give away for free, to our good friends ..

P.S.:
" Merkel had tied the delivery of the sixth submarine to a number of conditions, including a demand that Israel stop its expansionist settlement policy and allow the completion of a sewage treatment plant in the Gaza Strip, which is partially financed with German money. So far, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has met none of the terms. "

Skybird · 06-03-12, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Nuclear boats are much too loud nowadays. The "Dolphin" class is just the 212 type with minor changes. So also, the USA got the fuel cell technology for free, on detour of Israel.

Cheaper than to buy the whole shipyard, which they had tried some years back.

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.co...olution_lg.jpg

Both boats more base on the 209 and where developed parallel. The sail looks very different on 212 and Dolphin, different angles and proportions. Plus the Dolphin came out first. I think I read somewhere that expereinces with the Dolphin than were used in the 212.

Hawk66 · 06-03-12, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Nuclear boats are much too loud nowadays. The which we again give away for free, to our good friends ..

Nuclear boats are too loud? Think you compare apples with bananas^^

The 212 class is basically a reconnaissance and a 'brown water defense platform' with some blue waters capabilities...

It is not designed to be a deterrence platform like the Ohio class, which can literally be months/years on patrol... it is just a very special usecase what the Israelis do with it, which makes sense from their perspective...

Skybird · 06-03-12, 09:14 AM

Conventional boats not beeing a deterrant.

That's the first time and hopefully the last time I hear that. One such conventional boat would be able to hold up a wholew fleet - by just spreading the rumour that it is somewhere around while being much harder to be found than an SSN or SSBN.

Of course, SSBNs have another type deterring potential than a SSN or SS. But that is true for all SLBM and ICBM-typed weapons if you compare them to conventional weapons.

If you are a CBG commander, you cannot afford to take the risk to lead your fleet through waters where you have reason to assume a modern SS is operating. If you stumble over it, chances are you will not learn of its presence before your capital ships have blown up. An SSN you could possibly detect even when it sits still, the cooling water pumps must always work. An modern Swedish, Dutch or German SS is like a drop of water in the seawater.

If that massive limitation of operational freedom is not a deterrant, then I do not know what the term means.

Only when you manage to detect it, the role of the sub is spoiled, for it cannot relocate as fast as SSNs and so the victim can race away.

nikimcbee · 06-03-12, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

P.S.:
" Merkel had tied the delivery of the sixth submarine to a number of conditions, including a demand that Israel stop its expansionist settlement policy and allow the completion of a sewage treatment plant in the Gaza Strip, which is partially financed with German money. So far, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has met none of the terms. "

Is there anything these days that Germany is not financing?

Skybird · 06-03-12, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

Is there anything these days that Germany is not financing?

Since WWII you mean?

Probably not. Germans are mankind's walking bad conscience. However, paying for Palestinians is a EU-hobby. The more you dislike Israel, the more you pay to the Palestinians. It is also to compensate fgor the lack of aid by Saudi Arabia which already stresses its finances by missionising and recruiting in Europe.

CaptainHaplo · 06-03-12, 10:54 AM

If you think detecting an SS class boat only is done by the noise it makes, your sadly mistaken. If you think than an SSN is more noisy due to its reactor and associated cooling, your again incorrect.

The noise inside the hull doesn't matter one bit. What matters is what escapes through the hull. If it doesn't get outside the hull, either through mechanical vibration or auditory vibration - it doesn't matter.

If no noise escapes, then the only other sounds you have to deal with are external ones - the screw noise, waterflow and any mechanical transients like an external tube door opening. Hull forms are designed to minimize waterflow noise, while propulsion noise is significantly reduced by pumpjet tech. Mechanical transients are always kept to an absolute minimum.

Never fool yourself into thinking that sound is the only way to find a sub. MAD is another very publicly known way, and the sensitivity of such detectors is often underestimated. There are other, more.....remote ways of finding them too. Sound is an important way without a doubt, but its not the only one....

Catfish · 06-03-12, 12:17 PM

Take a look at the outcome of the fleet maneuvers of the last years

A conventional "SSK" 209 boat "sank" the flattop of a carrier group several times, and a 206 type did that with a 688 - "virtually" of course, but undetected. The 212 is a development, that can remain under water for six weeks - enough for almost all scenarios, but a nuclear strike.
I know there are new methods of detection apart from magnetism and anomalies, one of the institutes developing some of those methods for detecting patterns of all kinds is in Goettingen. From slightest salinity changes to changes of surface water ripples, to the russian method of using underwater optical reflection. The thermal backwater of an SSN is another thing and cannot be cured easily.

Apart from those methods the pumps and operation sounds of a nuclear "SSN" can be heard for miles, in blue water conditions, especially from older boats - remember despite rafting and other silencing techniques most of those boats are now 40 years old.

http://www.abendblatt.de/politik/aus...nd-machte.html

Skybird · 06-03-12, 07:01 PM

For MAD you need to bring the detector very close to the target. The Germans, and others probabbly as well are said to have dev eloped steel that is antimagnetic to defeat mines. That the real purpose for such special steel is to avoid too huge distortions of the earth's magnertic fields, is often forgotten. When the 212 entered service years ago, some military analyst in I think the FAZ newspaper dared to claim that it were practically invulnerable to any MAD sensors in service. Don't know if that is true. Just saying that it may be true.

The American navy has tried for two years or so to detect a Swedish Gotland submarine - and that even was within limited boundaries with a rough idea of where the sub should be. In real war, you would not even know for sure that there is a sub in a given region. The Swedes reported that they drove at will circles around the "hunters" and still were not detected. I do not buy it when some here have claimed that the navy detected them nevertheless and just acted as if they did not to deceive the Swedes and the world - I think the simplier explanation is that some took it queer that their team had lost.
And as Catfish said, small SS have repeatedly "sunk" carriers in random meetings as well at excercises. Even older, louder types.

The only advantage that an SSN has over a modern SS in an actual combat situation and running battle, is that it can sprint for its targets on the surface even when that tries to run away, and can also outrun a SS, which is slower - not as slow anymore than older SS used to be, but still slower than SSN. The SS has the tactical disadvanatge that it needs better strategic planning, intel and/or luck to be placed in a surface group's route - it cannot actively hunt it down by speed like an SSN can (at the price of becoming noisy, btw.).

So layman that I am, when needing to bet money on any of these three: a surface group, an SSN or a modern SS, I always bet on the modern SS from Sweden (Gotland, AIP Sterling engines) and Germany (212/214, fuel cells, Diesel, synchronous motor).

Let'S face it: if you are a skimmer and are up against a modern sub, than you have drawn the azz-card. That simple.

Karle94 · 06-03-12, 08:35 PM

Would have loved to see a simulated battle between the Type 212 and the ultimate SSN ever, the Seawolf. That one is extremely quiet, even for a SSN. Quiet at fast speed as well. From what I have read, a top underwater speed of 35+ knots. And it can carry 50 torpedoes, and/or Harpoon anti-ship missiles and Tomahawk cruise missiles. Only the old (50s`/60s`) SSNs had loud cooling pumps.

Skybird · 06-04-12, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karle94

Would have loved to see a simulated battle between the Type 212 and the ultimate SSN ever, the Seawolf. That one is extremely quiet, even for a SSN. Quiet at fast speed as well. From what I have read, a top underwater speed of 35+ knots. And it can carry 50 torpedoes, and/or Harpoon anti-ship missiles and Tomahawk cruise missiles. Only the old (50s`/60s`) SSNs had loud cooling pumps.

Probably would be decided by the quality of the sonar hardware and software. Both nations are said to be extremely good in sonar tech. I would expect Seawolf's advantage would be its greater speed. 212's advantage would be that it probably is that certain bit quiter.

I read today that the German government still hopes (yeah, these stupid simpletons indeed hope for it) to sell 214s to - Pakistan.

If that deal ever happens, it deserves some executions done in the Kanzleramt's garden, imo. Retarded unscrupulous bastards.

Skybird · 06-04-12, 03:33 PM

German Spiegel edition has a comment that clears up why the print edition is making such a big issue of the deal. The author of the article is no nobody but an Israeli expert who has close links and is well embedded in the Israeli military network. While German parties now make a big show and opposition fights against coalition and everybody acts as if the essays are a great revelation, it is more likely that the author simply has abused the Spiegel for Israeli interests. And that interest is to give Europe and Germany a strong hint on that the time window for endless word blubbering over Iran is closing and that from an Israeli perspective a nuclear arms race if not a war is the next thing coming.

In other words, the essays are a warning to Germany to still ignore the Iranian threat, and that things can become ugly very fast if this ignorrance does not come to a final and long-awaited end.

What the article thus says is not a sensation uncovered, what it really says is: Europe, get your acts together over Iran, else...

Catfish · 06-05-12, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

[...] that the German government still hopes (yeah, these stupid simpletons indeed hope for it) to sell 214s to - Pakistan.
If that deal ever happens, it deserves some executions done in the Kanzleramt's garden, imo. Retarded unscrupulous bastards.

The 214 is, despite of its higher number, much less capable than the 212 or Dolphin type - but it has the fuel cell AIP drive, and that's bad enough.
Just include some Stuxnet or Flame with the next software for the boat's systems

(Remember Flame came with a Windows update, and we all probably have it

)

But the Dolphin deal is not new, nor is the policy to support Israel no matter what. It gives Israel the possibility for a retaliation strike, if the Iran would launch nuclear weapons towards Israel - the tempting notion for Iran is that Israel would be virtually wiped out with two of those bombs.
But U-boats somewhere in the mediterranean or Red Sea would be able to retaliate, so any country would think twice before an attack - equilibrium of terror, it has worked before.
The older boats delivered had already 65 cm tubes, just with a 533 mm "inlet", which can be easily removed to accommodate bigger fishes. Maybe they just spared the Israelis the work to remove that this time.

So nothing really new about this 6th boat.

Greetings,
Catfish

06-03-12, 05:49 AM	#2
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,615 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	No news at all, it now is just formally admitted. The only quarrel I have with Germany delivering them boats is that we always deliver them for almost free or pay a huge ammount of their bill. They could have a dozen boats from us if they want them - but let's pay for the shopping that you are doing, okay? __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

06-03-12, 09:14 AM	#6
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,615 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Conventional boats not beeing a deterrant. That's the first time and hopefully the last time I hear that. One such conventional boat would be able to hold up a wholew fleet - by just spreading the rumour that it is somewhere around while being much harder to be found than an SSN or SSBN. Of course, SSBNs have another type deterring potential than a SSN or SS. But that is true for all SLBM and ICBM-typed weapons if you compare them to conventional weapons. If you are a CBG commander, you cannot afford to take the risk to lead your fleet through waters where you have reason to assume a modern SS is operating. If you stumble over it, chances are you will not learn of its presence before your capital ships have blown up. An SSN you could possibly detect even when it sits still, the cooling water pumps must always work. An modern Swedish, Dutch or German SS is like a drop of water in the seawater. If that massive limitation of operational freedom is not a deterrant, then I do not know what the term means. Only when you manage to detect it, the role of the sub is spoiled, for it cannot relocate as fast as SSNs and so the victim can race away. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

06-03-12, 10:54 AM	#9
CaptainHaplo Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,404 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	If you think detecting an SS class boat only is done by the noise it makes, your sadly mistaken. If you think than an SSN is more noisy due to its reactor and associated cooling, your again incorrect. The noise inside the hull doesn't matter one bit. What matters is what escapes through the hull. If it doesn't get outside the hull, either through mechanical vibration or auditory vibration - it doesn't matter. If no noise escapes, then the only other sounds you have to deal with are external ones - the screw noise, waterflow and any mechanical transients like an external tube door opening. Hull forms are designed to minimize waterflow noise, while propulsion noise is significantly reduced by pumpjet tech. Mechanical transients are always kept to an absolute minimum. Never fool yourself into thinking that sound is the only way to find a sub. MAD is another very publicly known way, and the sensitivity of such detectors is often underestimated. There are other, more.....remote ways of finding them too. Sound is an important way without a doubt, but its not the only one.... __________________ Good Hunting! Captain Haplo

06-03-12, 12:17 PM	#10
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,766 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Take a look at the outcome of the fleet maneuvers of the last years A conventional "SSK" 209 boat "sank" the flattop of a carrier group several times, and a 206 type did that with a 688 - "virtually" of course, but undetected. The 212 is a development, that can remain under water for six weeks - enough for almost all scenarios, but a nuclear strike. I know there are new methods of detection apart from magnetism and anomalies, one of the institutes developing some of those methods for detecting patterns of all kinds is in Goettingen. From slightest salinity changes to changes of surface water ripples, to the russian method of using underwater optical reflection. The thermal backwater of an SSN is another thing and cannot be cured easily. Apart from those methods the pumps and operation sounds of a nuclear "SSN" can be heard for miles, in blue water conditions, especially from older boats - remember despite rafting and other silencing techniques most of those boats are now 40 years old. http://www.abendblatt.de/politik/aus...nd-machte.html Last edited by Catfish; 06-03-12 at 03:13 PM.

06-03-12, 07:01 PM	#11
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,615 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	For MAD you need to bring the detector very close to the target. The Germans, and others probabbly as well are said to have dev eloped steel that is antimagnetic to defeat mines. That the real purpose for such special steel is to avoid too huge distortions of the earth's magnertic fields, is often forgotten. When the 212 entered service years ago, some military analyst in I think the FAZ newspaper dared to claim that it were practically invulnerable to any MAD sensors in service. Don't know if that is true. Just saying that it may be true. The American navy has tried for two years or so to detect a Swedish Gotland submarine - and that even was within limited boundaries with a rough idea of where the sub should be. In real war, you would not even know for sure that there is a sub in a given region. The Swedes reported that they drove at will circles around the "hunters" and still were not detected. I do not buy it when some here have claimed that the navy detected them nevertheless and just acted as if they did not to deceive the Swedes and the world - I think the simplier explanation is that some took it queer that their team had lost. And as Catfish said, small SS have repeatedly "sunk" carriers in random meetings as well at excercises. Even older, louder types. The only advantage that an SSN has over a modern SS in an actual combat situation and running battle, is that it can sprint for its targets on the surface even when that tries to run away, and can also outrun a SS, which is slower - not as slow anymore than older SS used to be, but still slower than SSN. The SS has the tactical disadvanatge that it needs better strategic planning, intel and/or luck to be placed in a surface group's route - it cannot actively hunt it down by speed like an SSN can (at the price of becoming noisy, btw.). So layman that I am, when needing to bet money on any of these three: a surface group, an SSN or a modern SS, I always bet on the modern SS from Sweden (Gotland, AIP Sterling engines) and Germany (212/214, fuel cells, Diesel, synchronous motor). Let'S face it: if you are a skimmer and are up against a modern sub, than you have drawn the azz-card. That simple. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

06-03-12, 05:59 AM	#3
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,766 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Nuclear boats are much too loud nowadays. The "Dolphin" class is just the 212 type with minor changes. So also, the USA got the fuel cell technology for free, on detour of Israel. But we will invent something new to put us ahead again - which we again give away for free, to our good friends .. P.S.: " Merkel had tied the delivery of the sixth submarine to a number of conditions, including a demand that Israel stop its expansionist settlement policy and allow the completion of a sewage treatment plant in the Gaza Strip, which is partially financed with German money. So far, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has met none of the terms. "

06-03-12, 08:35 PM	#12
Karle94 The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Norseland Posts: 1,355 Downloads: 253 Uploads: 0	Would have loved to see a simulated battle between the Type 212 and the ultimate SSN ever, the Seawolf. That one is extremely quiet, even for a SSN. Quiet at fast speed as well. From what I have read, a top underwater speed of 35+ knots. And it can carry 50 torpedoes, and/or Harpoon anti-ship missiles and Tomahawk cruise missiles. Only the old (50s`/60s`) SSNs had loud cooling pumps. __________________ Find my mods here: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/lzgciodldp58p/SH4_Mods My SH4 blog here: http://karle94.blogspot.com/

06-04-12, 03:33 PM	#14
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,615 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	German Spiegel edition has a comment that clears up why the print edition is making such a big issue of the deal. The author of the article is no nobody but an Israeli expert who has close links and is well embedded in the Israeli military network. While German parties now make a big show and opposition fights against coalition and everybody acts as if the essays are a great revelation, it is more likely that the author simply has abused the Spiegel for Israeli interests. And that interest is to give Europe and Germany a strong hint on that the time window for endless word blubbering over Iran is closing and that from an Israeli perspective a nuclear arms race if not a war is the next thing coming. In other words, the essays are a warning to Germany to still ignore the Iranian threat, and that things can become ugly very fast if this ignorrance does not come to a final and long-awaited end. What the article thus says is not a sensation uncovered, what it really says is: Europe, get your acts together over Iran, else... __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.