upgraded Oscar II SSGN

[MR. Wood]

http://translate.google.ru/translate...Fnews%2F519270

[Oberon]

Using an Oscar II as an intel boat? Bit big isn't it?

Still, good to see the girls getting a refit, they've done good work so far.

[Krauter]

Hmm.. Well according to the article, they state that armed with this new "Caliber" (?) missile system will make the new Oscars ideal for hitting European missile defence sites

The only reasonable option to use a boat - make it a striking boat, capable of engaging surface and surface objects. To do this, well suited launch of the "Caliber" with a range of up to 1.5 kilometers. With their help, "Antei" will be transformed into a Russian response to European missile defense - said, "Izvestia" Sivkov.

He recalled that the ground-range missiles such prohibited by the treaty on the elimination of intermediate-and shorter-range missiles, and sea - not, so the boat will ensure the defeat of any object on the defense throughout Northern Europe.

He also discards its use as an intelligence boat, or a mothership for saboteurs and such due to it being too noisy...

no good, because the boat is too noisy for modern conditions.

My knowledge of Russian submarine types has gotten shaky, the Boreis are SSBNs, what are these Tactical "Ash" Types? Akulas? Antei is Oscar II I believe and Varshavyanka would be... Improved Kilo?...

Vysotsky's predecessor as commander of the Navy, Admiral Vladimir Masorin said in an interview with "Izvestia" that the Navy needs at least four types of submarines, strategic "Borei" tactical "Ash", multi-functional "Antei" and diesel "Varshavyanka."

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Krauter

My knowledge of Russian submarine types has gotten shaky, the Boreis are SSBNs, what are these Tactical "Ash" Types? Akulas? Antei is Oscar II I believe and Varshavyanka would be... Improved Kilo?...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasen_class_submarine

Varshavyanka (the Woman from Warsaw) is the 636 Kilo Imp.

[Krauter]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasen_class_submarine

Varshavyanka (the Woman from Warsaw) is the 636 Kilo Imp.

Thanks TLAM,

To my knowledge the Russians are still using for:

SSBN: Delta IVs (Typhoons phased out, I think they had 2 left in service for tests last time I looked) and the new Boreis. Did they also still have Delta IIIs in use too?

SSNs From what I knew they were still using Victor IIIs, Akulas and Alfas and Sierras. Has this Graney sub entered service yet? How does it compare to LAi's and Virginias?

SSGN: Mostly Oscars and Charlies yes?

SSKs, Kilo, Kilo Imp. and didn't they have another sub on the drawing board? Lada or something like that?

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Krauter

Thanks TLAM,

To my knowledge the Russians are still using for:

SSBN: Delta IVs (Typhoons phased out, I think they had 2 left in service for tests last time I looked) and the new Boreis. Did they also still have Delta IIIs in use too?

SSNs From what I knew they were still using Victor IIIs, Akulas and Alfas and Sierras. Has this Graney sub entered service yet? How does it compare to LAi's and Virginias?

SSGN: Mostly Oscars and Charlies yes?

SSKs, Kilo, Kilo Imp. and didn't they have another sub on the drawing board? Lada or something like that?

Some Delta IIIs are still around as are all the Delta IVs. Alfas are retired, A few Victors and most of the Serras are arounds. The Yasen/Graney is still on sea trials. Compared to the Virgina its frikkin old. It was sitting in the shipyard for a decade so its not exactly cutting edge. Charlies are retired. They have one Lada operational, they have some upgraded Kilo in the works, and they got the Sarov class special projects boat.

[MR. Wood]

I read some where that the yasen was suppose to be like seawolf that is why it was delayed

[CaptainHaplo]

The only thing suprising about this is that its taken this long to happen. However, given the struggles of the Russian navy (along with its CIS counterparts) its not a big suprise it has taken forever to make this move.

Bottom line, they are taking a guided missile sub and making it into a....

cruise missile sub

The difference is that instead of carrying long range ASM's (ASCM), its going to carry SSM's / LACM's (at least in part). This simply gives the boat the ability to project force on land. This is not nearly the change its made out to be.

Our forces shifted more when we took three Ohio class boats and made them TLAM/TASM launch platforms.

To saturate a missile defense site, you need a lot of incoming missiles. Your standard cruise missile warhead is NOT that large - regardless of type. The only way they are going to do enough damage to make a "missile shield" system go down is to hit a fair number of sites in concert. Or use nuke warheads. Neither option makes sense.

If these boats ever get used, my bet would be out of the med or even Caspian Sea (if the depth allows) and hitting targetted strongpoints against groupls like Chechen rebels.

To use them to suppress a missile defense shield just doesn't wash given the likely capabilities.

[Krauter]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Some Delta IIIs are still around as are all the Delta IVs. Alfas are retired, A few Victors and most of the Serras are arounds. The Yasen/Graney is still on sea trials. Compared to the Virgina its frikkin old. It was sitting in the shipyard for a decade so its not exactly cutting edge. Charlies are retired. They have one Lada operational, they have some upgraded Kilo in the works, and they got the Sarov class special projects boat.

Ah so the Oscars are the only SSGNs they have. It'd be interesting to see just what the Russian Navys aims are with their subs, be it to use them as force projection or brown water work in the Med and Caspian Sea.

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

The difference is that instead of carrying long range ASM's (ASCM), its going to carry SSM's / LACM's (at least in part). This simply gives the boat the ability to project force on land. This is not nearly the change its made out to be.

Our forces shifted more when we took three Ohio class boats and made them TLAM/TASM launch platforms.

To saturate a missile defense site, you need a lot of incoming missiles. Your standard cruise missile warhead is NOT that large - regardless of type. The only way they are going to do enough damage to make a "missile shield" system go down is to hit a fair number of sites in concert. Or use nuke warheads. Neither option makes sense.

If these boats ever get used, my bet would be out of the med or even Caspian Sea (if the depth allows) and hitting targetted strongpoints against groupls like Chechen rebels.

To use them to suppress a missile defense shield just doesn't wash given the likely capabilities.

- Just a few points, they mentioned that this "Caliber" Missile system has a range of 1.4 km.... is that me just reading the article wrong or...?

- I do agree that they will probably be used in operations in areas like Chechnya or Dagestan or even South Ossetia and Georgia. Given the fact that these states have nothing akin to Naval forces it'd make sense to assume that if this new Belgorod was to be used as a SpecOps mothership, it'd probably be used in these areas as well where their opponents have no hope of detecting and even prosecuting the target.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Some Delta IIIs are still around as are all the Delta IVs. Alfas are retired, A few Victors and most of the Serras are arounds. The Yasen/Graney is still on sea trials. Compared to the Virgina its frikkin old. It was sitting in the shipyard for a decade so its not exactly cutting edge. Charlies are retired. They have one Lada operational, they have some upgraded Kilo in the works, and they got the Sarov class special projects boat.

To be fair, hull tech hasn't advanced that much these past 20 years, and if anything the Russians mastered the use of higher yield steel (AK-32 steel with 100kg/cm^2 which when you convert back comes to HY-140 equivalent) in the Akulas where the US are still working on about HY-100 with maybe some HY-130.

If the electronic fitout was the last part, it'll still be relatively modern and OK.

Originally Posted by Krauter

- Just a few points, they mentioned that this "Caliber" Missile system has a range of 1.4 km.... is that me just reading the article wrong or...?

It is not you. The original was 1,5 tys. km, "thousand km" but Google Translate handles numbers and units in general rather poorly. For the number it is best to disable the translation and find what it was.

[Krauter]

Ah alright thanks Kazuaki! I was trying to figure out what a Missile with 1.4 km range would be good for other than point defence or beaching yourself and pelting missiles and then trying to figure out who to blame for the mishap

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Krauter

Ah so the Oscars are the only SSGNs they have. It'd be interesting to see just what the Russian Navys aims are with their subs, be it to use them as force projection or brown water work in the Med and Caspian Sea.

The Yasen class has a VLS on the sides of the sail for SLCMs making it about as capable as a SSGN.

For the Caspian I doubt they will deploy submarines, they are however building some Buyan class corvettes.

[Krauter]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

The Yasen class has a VLS on the sides of the sail for SLCMs making it about as capable as a SSGN.

Similar in capability to LAis and Virginias (in that respect)?

What munitions do the Russians have that compare to VLS launched TLAMs?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Krauter

Similar in capability to LAis and Virginias (in that respect)?

What munitions do the Russians have that compare to VLS launched TLAMs?

I guess the 3M-54 Klub would be the closest?

[Krauter]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I guess the 3M-54 Klub would be the closest?

Going by a quick wikipedia search the 3M-54 system seems a little superior on paper to the Tomahawk, especially the E variant.