So Sweden sunk (?) an american submarine

Catfish · 12-13-11, 12:26 PM

Be sure to watch it from the beginning, just to see how things developed. Text is in german, but the original is english/swedish/russian.

Very interesting about the Reagan "era" and what was done to damage swedish prime minister Olof Palme's reputation - before he was killed.

Palme did all for a peaceful international approach of the superpowers, but the US did not like that and sought the confrontation with Russia, from Teller and Rickover to Reagan, they were on the war path. Any negotiation was considered as treachery. It also becomes obvious that the russian threat was a joke, militarily spoken.

Regarding the later part of the film - it suggests the first russian Diesel sub was guided to the shore and ran aground at Sweden's coast in the baltic, which maybe or not have been a CIA operation. It certainly looks like sabotage and a spy. Anyway a russian sub ran aground in swedish waters.

Next the whole world laughed at Sweden and Palme, who obviously was not able to keep its own territoral waters clean of russian subs, but this traitor wanted to talk and negotiate with the Soviets.

After this beaching there were now hundreds of sightings, every whale and seal was a sighted "russian" sub, but indeed US and british subs were in the area to test the swedish installations.
The joke is american and british submarines suddenly did all to be seen, so people would think Sweden could not defend its own waters with lots of "russian" subs violating the swedish territorial waters - only they were US subs, which the swedish people who observed that did not know, and suspect. So Olof Palme would be further incriminated, also by his own military for being such a "loser".

And then the Swedish Navy indeed tracked and depth charged a submarine, which sunk damaged and hit the bottom. Sounds of working personell and even voices (english) were recorded, and soon after a yellow-green blot appeared at the surface, an emergency signal. Colour and composition later made clear it was an US sub, damaged by the swedish depth charge, but they did not know that then. Anyway some order from "high above" forbade the use of further depth charges and they just waited, and listened.

Next days another sub was intercepted and followed, straight to the site of the depth charging. When the fleet was almost over the target and wanted to release the charges, there again was a sudden order not to release the charges, or "only one". The second sub was then listened to, until it tried to sneak away, thoroughly recorded by hydrophones and trackers, and no other action was taken.

After this Olof Palme was accused to have given the order "not to attack a russian submarine" and became further isolated politically. It did not matter if he indeed gave the order, or the swedish secret service, or NATO. Palme was accused and finished. When his power had faded and nobody thought of him anymore, he was killed. It remains open whether it was own right-wing hawks inside the military or the national secret service, or some such service from abroad.
Perfectly Sun Tzu: Denigrate, belittle and isolate a man thoroughly, before you kill him. Who needs enemies when you have such friends ..

Interesting that those former "wild unfounded conspiracy theories" slowly prove to be something else than that, or even worse.

CCIP · 12-13-11, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Interesting that those former "wild unfounded conspiracy theories" slowly prove to be something else than that, being worse.

In fairness, a single documentary claiming something isn't necessarily solid grounding. Not to say it's necessarily false or anything, but it still seems rather out there.

August · 12-13-11, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Interesting that those former "wild unfounded conspiracy theories" slowly prove to be something else than that, or even worse.

I saw nothing on the video or in your post that would change that definition. I do see some wishful thinking however.

Catfish · 12-13-11, 12:39 PM

Which text exactly brought you to the conclusion that this is an unfounded theory ?

August · 12-13-11, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Which text exactly brought you to the conclusion that this is an unfounded theory ?

That he was assassinated by the CIA? How about this?

Quote:

Denigrate, belittle and isolate a man thoroughly, before you kill him. Who needs enemies when you have such friends ..

Obviously you aren't talking about the KGB or the South Africans...

Catfish · 12-13-11, 01:03 PM

Yes, you are right - not by the KGB or the South Africans.
It is not directly said in the film as well, and "Honi soit qui mal y pense", but:

The violation of swedish territorial waters by US and british subs, to make it look like russian intruders and influence the public opinion against prime minister Mr. Palme, the psychological warfare of the US to influence and shut up a befriended nation like Sweden, having the boldness to talk (!) with the Russians, could (!) suggest that. And it leaves a bad taste, diplomatically spoken.

This "russian" violation of swedish waters was stage-managed alright by the US, Britain or both, this is obvious. And as usual it pays to think about who has the most gain of such action happening *.
The swedish military and politics of the time did not even realize how it was deceived.

Regarding the killing:
I did not say it was the CIA. There is however a very low chance it was the KGB ? Or South Africa ? Two countries you introduced, not me. You could have proposed Switzerland as well.
It may well be Palme was killed by his own military, or by his own secret service consisting of right wing hawks having sympathy for, and connections with, the CIA.
The film (!) suggests that.

*It also maybe that he was just killed by a maniac, or born murderer, who knows. But it pays to think about who has the most gain of such action happening.

I don't accuse anyone, back then it was the cold war, and governments inofficially still murder enemies abroad.

Catfish · 12-13-11, 01:45 PM

B.t.w. it is not this documentation alone, along with reconstructions there are a lot of german, danish and norvegian naval logbooks and very explicite opinions on that matter.
This action led to a political shift and a change of public opinion in Sweden against the Soviet Union, exactly as planned.
e.g.
"The secret war against sweden - us and british submarine deception in the 1980ies" from Tulander, also speaking in the vid:
http://books.google.de/books?id=cN-E...page&q&f=false

Page 4 from the middle, why Palme may have been a target - page 13 how the deception influenced and changed the perception of Sweden towards the russian "aggression".

Jimbuna · 12-13-11, 01:50 PM

Pretty inconclusive IMHO but it would have helped greatly if I understood the language.

Osmium Steele · 12-13-11, 03:11 PM

So, which US sub was it? The only nuc boats lost were Thresher and Scorpion in the 60s. Both locations now well documented?

Keep in mind, I served in Sublant in the 80s. I had friends/classmates in every atlantic fleet submarine squadron. If a nuc boat went missing, I'd have heard. There is just no way to keep that kind of thing secret.
All diesel boats in commission at that time are accounted for as well.

What became of it? Is it still there with a bunch of dead american sailors?

Was a secret rescue operation mounted which slipped it out from under the nose of the swedish navy?

Also, it is very difficult to mistake a US sub of that era with a soviet boat. A simple description of what was seen would have laid that to rest. All US designs of the time had fairwater planes, and only the soviet Yankees and Deltas had them, neither of which would have been seen anywhere near the Swedish coast.

About the only demonstrable fact stated in the entire piece was that a Soviet deisel boat ran aground in the territorial waters of Sweden. The rest is hearsay, and fantasy.

Jimbuna · 12-13-11, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osmium Steele

So, which US sub was it? The only nuc boats lost were Thresher and Scorpion in the 60s. Both locations now well documented?

Keep in mind, I served in Sublant in the 80s. I had friends/classmates in every atlantic fleet submarine squadron. If a nuc boat went missing, I'd have heard. There is just no way to keep that kind of thing secret.
All diesel boats in commission at that time are accounted for as well.

What became of it? Is it still there with a bunch of dead american sailors?

Was a secret rescue operation mounted which slipped it out from under the nose of the swedish navy?

Also, it is very difficult to mistake a US sub of that era with a soviet boat. A simple description of what was seen would have laid that to rest. All US designs of the time had fairwater planes, and only the soviet Yankees and Deltas had them, neither of which would have been seen anywhere near the Swedish coast.

About the only demonstrable fact stated in the entire piece was that a Soviet deisel boat ran aground in the territorial waters of Sweden. The rest is hearsay, and fantasy.

Agreed

August · 12-13-11, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Two countries you introduced, not me. You could have proposed Switzerland as well.

I didn't just pick those countries out of a hat Catfish. Palme was known for his harsh criticism of Apartheid and Soviet imperialist ambitions. I'd say there's more than a "very low chance" it was one of them.

Catfish · 12-14-11, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

I didn't just pick those countries out of a hat Catfish. Palme was known for his harsh criticism of Apartheid and Soviet imperialist ambitions. I'd say there's more than a "very low chance" it was one of them.

Yes but you see, he was equally harsh against the aggressiveness of US politics of the time, and pi**ed off the US with his "worldwide peace negotiations".
You are right they all had an axe to grind with Palmes, but the biggest had the US. Do me the favor and read page 4 -13.
http://books.google.de/books?id=cN-E...page&q&f=false

August · 12-14-11, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Yes but you see, he was equally harsh against the aggressiveness of US politics of the time, and pi**ed off the US with his "worldwide peace negotiations".
You are right they all had an axe to grind with Palmes, but the biggest had the US. Do me the favor and read page 4 -13.
http://books.google.de/books?id=cN-E...page&q&f=false

I gave it a quick read. Apparently it makes a fair number of allegations but like usual with books of this sort it's short on provable facts.

Look the only people I know of who will assassinate someone after the damage is done is the Russians (see Alexander Litvinenko). If the CIA was in the habit of such things don't you think Julien Assange or Hugo Chavez or Jane Fonda, or any number of peaceniks and troublemakers would not have been terminated by now? Palme's impact as an irritant was eliminated when he left office. It would not make sense to remove a threat that has already been neutralized.

Catfish · 12-14-11, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

...
Look the only people I know of who will assassinate someone after the damage is done is the Russians (see Alexander Litvinenko). If the CIA was in the habit of such things don't you think Julien Assange or Hugo Chavez or Jane Fonda, or any number of peaceniks and troublemakers would not have been terminated by now? Palme's impact as an irritant was eliminated when he left office. It would not make sense to remove a threat that has already been neutralized.

Well my point is the CIA did and does it like the Mossad and surely the Russians. Now they are doing it with drones and more collateral damage. Remember how much (for the US) inconvenient people died in Middle and South America, in those airplane crashes in the 1970ies amd 80ies ?
This became so bad that every plane crash was joked about in a fashion like "who now was in the plane the CIA wanted to get rid off ?".

And then i'm not sure how long Chavez is going to make it

Edit: ah i see your point like "why do it when the danger is removed" - ok. I think it's bad enough deceiving a "befriended" nation that way, to remove inconvenient politicians - this alone is the handwriting of the CIA for sure. And some guys there have been proven to be a bit resentful ?

But then you are right it is only an assumption, but imho a founded one.

heartc · 12-14-11, 03:29 PM

But the CIA also flew the jets into the towers, August.

/sarc

12-13-11, 12:26 PM	#1
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,765 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	So Sweden sunk (?) an american submarine Be sure to watch it from the beginning, just to see how things developed. Text is in german, but the original is english/swedish/russian. Very interesting about the Reagan "era" and what was done to damage swedish prime minister Olof Palme's reputation - before he was killed. Palme did all for a peaceful international approach of the superpowers, but the US did not like that and sought the confrontation with Russia, from Teller and Rickover to Reagan, they were on the war path. Any negotiation was considered as treachery. It also becomes obvious that the russian threat was a joke, militarily spoken. Regarding the later part of the film - it suggests the first russian Diesel sub was guided to the shore and ran aground at Sweden's coast in the baltic, which maybe or not have been a CIA operation. It certainly looks like sabotage and a spy. Anyway a russian sub ran aground in swedish waters. Next the whole world laughed at Sweden and Palme, who obviously was not able to keep its own territoral waters clean of russian subs, but this traitor wanted to talk and negotiate with the Soviets. After this beaching there were now hundreds of sightings, every whale and seal was a sighted "russian" sub, but indeed US and british subs were in the area to test the swedish installations. The joke is american and british submarines suddenly did all to be seen, so people would think Sweden could not defend its own waters with lots of "russian" subs violating the swedish territorial waters - only they were US subs, which the swedish people who observed that did not know, and suspect. So Olof Palme would be further incriminated, also by his own military for being such a "loser". And then the Swedish Navy indeed tracked and depth charged a submarine, which sunk damaged and hit the bottom. Sounds of working personell and even voices (english) were recorded, and soon after a yellow-green blot appeared at the surface, an emergency signal. Colour and composition later made clear it was an US sub, damaged by the swedish depth charge, but they did not know that then. Anyway some order from "high above" forbade the use of further depth charges and they just waited, and listened. Next days another sub was intercepted and followed, straight to the site of the depth charging. When the fleet was almost over the target and wanted to release the charges, there again was a sudden order not to release the charges, or "only one". The second sub was then listened to, until it tried to sneak away, thoroughly recorded by hydrophones and trackers, and no other action was taken. After this Olof Palme was accused to have given the order "not to attack a russian submarine" and became further isolated politically. It did not matter if he indeed gave the order, or the swedish secret service, or NATO. Palme was accused and finished. When his power had faded and nobody thought of him anymore, he was killed. It remains open whether it was own right-wing hawks inside the military or the national secret service, or some such service from abroad. Perfectly Sun Tzu: Denigrate, belittle and isolate a man thoroughly, before you kill him. Who needs enemies when you have such friends .. Interesting that those former "wild unfounded conspiracy theories" slowly prove to be something else than that, or even worse.

12-13-11, 01:45 PM	#7
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,765 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	B.t.w. it is not this documentation alone, along with reconstructions there are a lot of german, danish and norvegian naval logbooks and very explicite opinions on that matter. This action led to a political shift and a change of public opinion in Sweden against the Soviet Union, exactly as planned. e.g. "The secret war against sweden - us and british submarine deception in the 1980ies" from Tulander, also speaking in the vid: http://books.google.de/books?id=cN-E...page&q&f=false Page 4 from the middle, why Palme may have been a target - page 13 how the deception influenced and changed the perception of Sweden towards the russian "aggression". Last edited by Catfish; 12-13-11 at 02:05 PM.

12-13-11, 01:50 PM	#8
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,447 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Pretty inconclusive IMHO but it would have helped greatly if I understood the language. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

12-13-11, 03:11 PM	#9
Osmium Steele Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Upper midwest USA Posts: 1,101 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	So, which US sub was it? The only nuc boats lost were Thresher and Scorpion in the 60s. Both locations now well documented? Keep in mind, I served in Sublant in the 80s. I had friends/classmates in every atlantic fleet submarine squadron. If a nuc boat went missing, I'd have heard. There is just no way to keep that kind of thing secret. All diesel boats in commission at that time are accounted for as well. What became of it? Is it still there with a bunch of dead american sailors? Was a secret rescue operation mounted which slipped it out from under the nose of the swedish navy? Also, it is very difficult to mistake a US sub of that era with a soviet boat. A simple description of what was seen would have laid that to rest. All US designs of the time had fairwater planes, and only the soviet Yankees and Deltas had them, neither of which would have been seen anywhere near the Swedish coast. About the only demonstrable fact stated in the entire piece was that a Soviet deisel boat ran aground in the territorial waters of Sweden. The rest is hearsay, and fantasy. __________________ In the month of July of the year 1348, between the feasts of St. Benedict and of St. Swithin, a strange thing came upon England... My U297 build thread

12-14-11, 03:29 PM	#15
heartc Samurai Navy Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Munich Posts: 562 Downloads: 71 Uploads: 0	But the CIA also flew the jets into the towers, August. /sarc __________________

12-13-11, 12:39 PM	#4
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,765 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Which text exactly brought you to the conclusion that this is an unfounded theory ?

12-13-11, 01:03 PM	#6
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,765 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Yes, you are right - not by the KGB or the South Africans. It is not directly said in the film as well, and "Honi soit qui mal y pense", but: The violation of swedish territorial waters by US and british subs, to make it look like russian intruders and influence the public opinion against prime minister Mr. Palme, the psychological warfare of the US to influence and shut up a befriended nation like Sweden, having the boldness to talk (!) with the Russians, could (!) suggest that. And it leaves a bad taste, diplomatically spoken. This "russian" violation of swedish waters was stage-managed alright by the US, Britain or both, this is obvious. And as usual it pays to think about who has the most gain of such action happening . The swedish military and politics of the time did not even realize how it was deceived. Regarding the killing: I did not say it was the CIA. There is however a very low chance it was the KGB ? Or South Africa ? Two countries you introduced, not me. You could have proposed Switzerland as well. It may well be Palme was killed by his own military, or by his own secret service consisting of right wing hawks having sympathy for, and connections with, the CIA. The film (!) suggests that. It also maybe that he was just killed by a maniac, or born murderer, who knows. But it pays to think about who has the most gain of such action happening. I don't accuse anyone, back then it was the cold war, and governments inofficially still murder enemies abroad.