Detection

Chicki · 11-12-11, 05:20 AM

Hey skippers. I've set up a practice mission with a target about 20 km NW of me. I plot his course and speed and get myself all set up abeam his course, about 1000 yds. out, 75 ft. down, 1 knot speed, silent running. Crew at battle stations doors open. No pinging, no periscope, nothing. Problem is the target seems to detect me somehow. At about 2500 yds., he just veers off. I've used a couple different kinds of tankers and freighters and they all veer off. I'm using TMO 2.2. How can they possibly detect me?! Love to get some practice shots off but never get the chance. ????? Help. I hate this game boys! Lol!

11-12-11, 06:14 AM

I think it's TMO 2.2

I have stopped playing TMO for that reason

I always get spotted even when in pitch dark, with engines off and no periscope up, they just seem to realize that you're there.

TMO is famous for upgrading the sensors of enemy ships drastically to make it harder.

And in my opinion, takes some of the realism out, because you just get detected way way too soon, thats my knowledge of it anyhow

WernherVonTrapp · 11-12-11, 06:38 AM

Welcome abroad Chicki.

I once worked with a guy by that name (nickname of course).

This convoy you're pursuing, do they all start to zigzag or do they all just veer off and continue on a new course. If it's the latter, it may simply be that you caught up with them at an ambush point where they just happen to change course. I've had this happen on occasion too. Just try to set up an ambush point that's along their new course, or sooner (if possible) on their previous course.

Rockin Robbins · 11-12-11, 10:16 AM

Chicki, I think you may be running into a random zig and just think they're detecting you. Only very late in the war and on a very few merchants did they have any listening ability at all. I've never had any merchant react to me in tmo 2.2 unless I've wagged my periscope at them for a long time.

Since you've set up a mission for it, try running the mission and stay away to see if they zig there without your presence.

Chicki · 11-12-11, 03:28 PM

Hey. Thanks for the replys. Um, this is a mission that I created using the mission editor. It's just a single ship. Will the ship just zig automatacially? I don't think it's a zig because the ship just kinda starts wandering around. It's very weird.

Montray is scaring me a bit about TMO. First negative thing I've heard about it, other than it makes the game harder. Hmmmm, maybe I should play the stock version for a bit. Sure like the graphics of TMO though. Anyway, thanks guys.

Arlo · 11-12-11, 03:39 PM

TMO is tough. I'd venture to say 'tough as hell' but then I'm still cuttin' my teeth in it.

TorpX · 11-12-11, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicki

Hey. Thanks for the replys. Um, this is a mission that I created using the mission editor. It's just a single ship. Will the ship just zig automatacially? I don't think it's a zig because the ship just kinda starts wandering around. It's very weird.

Montray is scaring me a bit about TMO. First negative thing I've heard about it, other than it makes the game harder. Hmmmm, maybe I should play the stock version for a bit. Sure like the graphics of TMO though. Anyway, thanks guys.

If you decide to drop TMO, try RFB instead. Stock is terrible...........

Armistead · 11-12-11, 07:41 PM

A single merchant shouldn't give you any problems unless it's somehow spotted your scope. When you built the mission, did you start yourself within range as often it takes some time for a ship to gain speed and get on track if you put yourself too close at mission start.

Most of us find even TMO easy after we play it sometime and do what we can to make it more difficult....Really, TMO isn't that hard, most of us that play it can destroy convoys and TF rather easily, often people can score 100K tons per patrol....just got to learn it and how to react.

Chicki · 11-13-11, 12:49 AM

Yeah buddy. The ship is about 20 klicks north of me. That far enough? I'll just keep plugging along. Finding this sim crazy hard right now. Thanks skippers!

Daniel Prates · 11-16-11, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicki

The ship is about 20 klicks north of me.

A ship should not be visible from so far away.

Ducimus · 11-16-11, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

Most of us find even TMO easy after we play it sometime and do what we can to make it more difficult....Really, TMO isn't that hard, most of us that play it can destroy convoys and TF rather easily, often people can score 100K tons per patrol....just got to learn it and how to react.

This, aside from what was stated in the PDF file in the section about my take on realism, is why the AI is racheted up a tad in TMO. Regardless of what tweaks are done to the AI's sensors, eventually you figure it out.

Avoiding detection in any SH game, be it 3, 4, or 5, is really just an exercise in threading a needle. In vanilla, the needle eye looks like this:

All TMO does, is make the needle eye smaller:

Regardless of allowances in avoiding the AI as illustrated above, eventually, no matter how large or small it is, you become adept at threading this metaphorical needle. When you become good at it, large allowances become dull and boring.

Now all that said, the AI in TMO is not what i would call, "atlantic hard". I did infact, hold back on what was possible because artistic license will only go so far in the face of historical fact. When i came to SH4, i came to it from having played and modded SH3 for a few years. So i took that experience as my guide for some of the design decisions I made when working on TMO.

As an aside, my reguaritated spiel on avoiding the AI:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm

CptLoonee · 11-16-11, 01:14 PM

I run TMO 2.2 and I have never had a merchant detect me while submerged until after firing. Not sure what could be causing that.

mobucks · 11-16-11, 06:02 PM

I love the random zigs. Really feels realistic. Is there any mod that includes a harder zig plan? (3-10 minutes each zig, same base course) In TMO 2.2 they seem to only change course and it seems like a zig but might be just my luck that they change course within 2 minutes of firing.

WernherVonTrapp · 11-16-11, 06:24 PM

When I first tried TMO last year (1.7 I think), I immediately became annoyed and frustrated with the convoys' course changes. It was then that I realized I had only ever known/played the stock version, and compared to TMO, stock is like playing Contra .vs Duck Hunt.

Ducimus · 11-16-11, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mobucks

I love the random zigs. Really feels realistic. Is there any mod that includes a harder zig plan? (3-10 minutes each zig, same base course) In TMO 2.2 they seem to only change course and it seems like a zig but might be just my luck that they change course within 2 minutes of firing.

Zig zags take cpu power, and greatly increase the size of the campaign files. Do it too much, and you'll pretty much make the game slow down to a crawl if it doesnt CTD outright. Convoys in TMO do zig zag on a regular basis. About every 15 to 20 NM they'll zig or zag. The exact leg lengths are randomized a little.

11-12-11, 05:20 AM	#1
Chicki Watch Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 18 Downloads: 68 Uploads: 0	Detection Hey skippers. I've set up a practice mission with a target about 20 km NW of me. I plot his course and speed and get myself all set up abeam his course, about 1000 yds. out, 75 ft. down, 1 knot speed, silent running. Crew at battle stations doors open. No pinging, no periscope, nothing. Problem is the target seems to detect me somehow. At about 2500 yds., he just veers off. I've used a couple different kinds of tankers and freighters and they all veer off. I'm using TMO 2.2. How can they possibly detect me?! Love to get some practice shots off but never get the chance. ????? Help. I hate this game boys! Lol!

11-12-11, 06:38 AM	#3
WernherVonTrapp Admiral Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Now, alot farther from NYC. Posts: 2,228 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 0	Welcome abroad Chicki. I once worked with a guy by that name (nickname of course). This convoy you're pursuing, do they all start to zigzag or do they all just veer off and continue on a new course. If it's the latter, it may simply be that you caught up with them at an ambush point where they just happen to change course. I've had this happen on occasion too. Just try to set up an ambush point that's along their new course, or sooner (if possible) on their previous course. __________________ "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." -Miyamoto Musashi ------------------------------------------------------- "What is truth?" -Pontius Pilate

11-12-11, 10:16 AM	#4
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	Chicki, I think you may be running into a random zig and just think they're detecting you. Only very late in the war and on a very few merchants did they have any listening ability at all. I've never had any merchant react to me in tmo 2.2 unless I've wagged my periscope at them for a long time. Since you've set up a mission for it, try running the mission and stay away to see if they zig there without your presence. __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

11-12-11, 03:39 PM	#6
Arlo The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,304 Downloads: 214 Uploads: 0	TMO is tough. I'd venture to say 'tough as hell' but then I'm still cuttin' my teeth in it. __________________ -Arlo

11-16-11, 06:24 PM	#14
WernherVonTrapp Admiral Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Now, alot farther from NYC. Posts: 2,228 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 0	When I first tried TMO last year (1.7 I think), I immediately became annoyed and frustrated with the convoys' course changes. It was then that I realized I had only ever known/played the stock version, and compared to TMO, stock is like playing Contra .vs Duck Hunt. __________________ "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." -Miyamoto Musashi ------------------------------------------------------- "What is truth?" -Pontius Pilate

11-12-11, 06:14 AM	#2
Montray Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I think it's TMO 2.2 I have stopped playing TMO for that reason I always get spotted even when in pitch dark, with engines off and no periscope up, they just seem to realize that you're there. TMO is famous for upgrading the sensors of enemy ships drastically to make it harder. And in my opinion, takes some of the realism out, because you just get detected way way too soon, thats my knowledge of it anyhow

11-12-11, 03:28 PM	#5
Chicki Watch Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 18 Downloads: 68 Uploads: 0	Hey. Thanks for the replys. Um, this is a mission that I created using the mission editor. It's just a single ship. Will the ship just zig automatacially? I don't think it's a zig because the ship just kinda starts wandering around. It's very weird. Montray is scaring me a bit about TMO. First negative thing I've heard about it, other than it makes the game harder. Hmmmm, maybe I should play the stock version for a bit. Sure like the graphics of TMO though. Anyway, thanks guys.

11-12-11, 07:41 PM	#8
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	A single merchant shouldn't give you any problems unless it's somehow spotted your scope. When you built the mission, did you start yourself within range as often it takes some time for a ship to gain speed and get on track if you put yourself too close at mission start. Most of us find even TMO easy after we play it sometime and do what we can to make it more difficult....Really, TMO isn't that hard, most of us that play it can destroy convoys and TF rather easily, often people can score 100K tons per patrol....just got to learn it and how to react.

11-13-11, 12:49 AM	#9
Chicki Watch Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 18 Downloads: 68 Uploads: 0	Yeah buddy. The ship is about 20 klicks north of me. That far enough? I'll just keep plugging along. Finding this sim crazy hard right now. Thanks skippers!

11-16-11, 01:14 PM	#12
CptLoonee Helmsman Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 110 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	I run TMO 2.2 and I have never had a merchant detect me while submerged until after firing. Not sure what could be causing that.

11-16-11, 06:02 PM	#13
mobucks Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 713 Downloads: 209 Uploads: 0	I love the random zigs. Really feels realistic. Is there any mod that includes a harder zig plan? (3-10 minutes each zig, same base course) In TMO 2.2 they seem to only change course and it seems like a zig but might be just my luck that they change course within 2 minutes of firing.