Simultaneous detonations

Daniel Prates · 06-27-11, 10:13 AM

In the in-game experience, i've noticed that you can fire all your torps at praticaly the same time, and they will all explode upon contact (providing none are duds), even if they are shot, say, a fraction of a second from each other.

My point is: in real life, the detonation of the first torpedo could or could not induce a premature detonation on the second torpedo coming just behind it? Or damage its firing pistol, or wrecking it complete, or etc etc etc? My point is, torpedos were so delicate, that I often wonder if a skipper would wait a few seconds between torpedoes shots, just to avoid the first detonation causing any damage to the other torp following just behind.

What do you history buffs have to say about it?

Dogfish40 · 06-27-11, 11:01 AM

Ahoy Daniel,
You have an interesting point. So far though, I have not read of any "domino" effect per say of one torpedo setting off another. This would have definitely been an issue looked upon early in the design faze of the torpedoes. There were a number of reasons for prematures. Prematures were most often a result of the magnetic exploder being set too fine resulting in the fish going off for any reason once it armed or got even near a ship much less under it. The firing pin issue was another problem in itself but unless a piece of shrapnel actually hit the pin, it probably wouldn't be set off by an explosion. I'll keep looking out for anything on the subject. I've also read of Skippers counting between firing, weather of not this was part of the reason, I don't know for sure. It might have been part of their firing solution.
D40

Armistead · 06-27-11, 02:23 PM

I use TMO, plus other mods, but have never had this issue, but I'm not sure what you mean by a fraction of time. Historically, torps couldn't be fired at the same time, most skippers ordered 6 second intervals, but a few more seconds would pass before the torp would launch, prolly around 10 seconds. The time intervals had more to do with correct spreads than worry about a premature causing problems for other torps, but in game due to the stop and start speeds of ships it's best to get them out as soon as you can based on your method. I often shoot by the wire, so I fire when the part of the ship I want to hit crosses the wire and that has more to do with the speed of the ship as far as timing when to fire.

In game, even the fastest you can shoot one after the other is about 3 seconds no matter how fast you click all the fire buttons together. Historically, you could fire one as soon as the other cleared and I'm sure it was done, but most waited some seconds. If you're say 6th torp is hitting a target within seconds of the first one you fired, something is amiss, there should be about a 9-12 second difference between 1 and 6 torp which can be seen using the redline on the watch.

Certainly historically a premature could disrupt another torp, but that would be rare due to timing and course, in game prematures do not effect other torps.

I agree the game is probably off some historically, they do hit close together if fired quickly one after the other, but when you say a fraction of time for all 6....I don't see that.

TorpX · 06-27-11, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Prates

In the in-game experience, i've noticed that you can fire all your torps at praticaly the same time, and they will all explode upon contact (providing none are duds), even if they are shot, say, a fraction of a second from each other.

My point is: in real life, the detonation of the first torpedo could or could not induce a premature detonation on the second torpedo coming just behind it? Or damage its firing pistol, or wrecking it complete, or etc etc etc? My point is, torpedos were so delicate, that I often wonder if a skipper would wait a few seconds between torpedoes shots, just to avoid the first detonation causing any damage to the other torp following just behind.

What do you history buffs have to say about it?

You are right about torpedos being very delicate and complex. It didn't take much to cause malfunctions. Real skippers would never launch torpedos close together. Too many things could go wrong. Apart from the fractricide issue, they could interfere with each other. All it would take is one bumping the other and then, either an explosion or two erratic fish. Anyway, what would be the advantage? From what I've read they used 8 to 10 sec. intervals. US torps did have a "countermining" device designed to prevent shocks from prematurely setting them off, but I believe this was eliminated on later models. (I haven't read too much about this.) Perhaps it was considered unneccessary.

IDK about the game torps, they are probably borked like almost everything else. In SHCE you could have one torpedo overtake, impact and blow up another (by firing the first slow and the next fast).

Platapus · 06-27-11, 07:21 PM

In some of the torpedo books there is mention of a counter-mining mechanism. That may be what you are talking about.

Mescator · 06-28-11, 02:38 AM

I recall in Wahoo one of Mortons prematures either detonated or killed a couple of other torpedoes in the spread, but it's the only occasion i've heard of it.

Daniel Prates · 06-28-11, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

In some of the torpedo books there is mention of a counter-mining mechanism. That may be what you are talking about.

No dude, what i'm talking about is a simple question: can the explosion of a torpedo interfere with another torpedo coming just behind it? Was that a historicaly documented concern for skippers?

magic452 · 06-28-11, 05:02 PM

Well in the early war they were happy just to get them to go off at all.

It may have been a small concern but the methods use to fire pretty much eliminated any problem and I have never heard of any real concern by ships captains etc. In theory it could happen with a fast speed setting right behind a slow one or two torpedoes aimed very close to each other. Never heard of it happening though.

In the game it has no effect at all.

Magic

TorpX · 06-28-11, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Prates

No dude, what i'm talking about is a simple question: can the explosion of a torpedo interfere with another torpedo coming just behind it? Was that a historicaly documented concern for skippers?

If you use the historical 8 or 10 sec. interval, it should not be a problem. What would happen in-game if you fire them off close together, I don't know. You might have to figure this out yourself. I think in SH 3, one can use a salvo mode that fires them quickly, so apparently it is not an issue there.

Daniel Prates · 06-29-11, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorpX

If you use the historical 8 or 10 sec. interval, it should not be a problem. What would happen in-game if you fire them off close together, I don't know. You might have to figure this out yourself. I think in SH 3, one can use a salvo mode that fires them quickly, so apparently it is not an issue there.

Yeah, indeed in SH3 you can set a simultaneous salvo, which pretty much makes them run very close to each other.I know that in-game it makes no difference, but it seem to me that a torpedo exploding agains the hull of a ship would probably detonate or damage a torpedo close enough - say 20 or 30 feet, maybe even more, specially them being so delicate and flawed. So it seems strange that a skipper would choose to fire a simultaneous salvo such as SH3 permits.

I have gone ingame to stop guessing and see how that works (SH4, that is). Indeed, in all-stop and at periscope depth, even if you fire all 6 tubes as fast as you can (hitting 'fire' a fraction of a second from each other), the tubes will fire in order with several seconds (3-4) apart from each other.

Now I don't know why that is. I know that loading and firing a torpedo is a complex operation. But assuming all tubes are flooded and ready to fire, it should be possible to fire them all at once, and in such case they should leave their tubes also all at once.

That would be of course unwise - they could bump into eachother and cause a tragedy.

So this may explain why it was standard procedure to wait a few seconds between shots. Skippers would never do simultaneous shots even if the machinery allows it, because of the risk of two torpedoes colliding just in front of the sub.

Considering that, it puzzles me that SH3 has an 'all-out simultaneous salvo' firing mode.

razark · 06-29-11, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Prates

But assuming all tubes are flooded and ready to fire, it should be possible to fire them all at once, and in such case they should leave their tubes also all at once.

That would be of course unwise - they could bump into eachother and cause a tragedy.

Torpedoes bumping into each other would be a minor issue. You'd probably be to busy to even notice.

Imagine the weight of a single torpedo. Multiply by six. Now, suddenly remove that weight from one end of a carefully balanced lever. What happens?

As each torpedo is fired, the crew must work to keep the boat level, replacing the weight of the torpedo with an equivalent weight of water, redistributing the ballast water, etc. Even if the crew was fast enough and knew exactly how much when and where, I doubt the machinery would be able to handle it. You would end up with the boat's bow suddenly popping out of the water, which is not exactly the best thing when you're trying to be sneaky.

Daniel Prates · 06-29-11, 01:50 PM

I see. Yet another reason not to fire them simultaneously.

TorpX · 06-29-11, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Torpedoes bumping into each other would be a minor issue. You'd probably be to busy to even notice.

It depends on what you consider a minor issue. Contact between torpedos would most likely result in an explosion or all the torps running erratic. You would not notice the bumping, but would notice that you missed your target.

Quote:

Imagine the weight of a single torpedo. Multiply by six. Now, suddenly remove that weight from one end of a carefully balanced lever. What happens?

As each torpedo is fired, the crew must work to keep the boat level, replacing the weight of the torpedo with an equivalent weight of water, redistributing the ballast water, etc. Even if the crew was fast enough and knew exactly how much when and where, I doubt the machinery would be able to handle it. You would end up with the boat's bow suddenly popping out of the water, which is not exactly the best thing when you're trying to be sneaky.

When the torpedo is fired, as it leaves the tube, a poppet valve vents the air in the tube back into the boat. This is helpful in that there will be no big impulse bubble coming up to the surface to mark the position, and water will flood back into the tube to balance the weight lost (more or less). I suspect they could have fired torpedos rapidly, if there was some need to do so. (Evidently, there wasn't.) Most of the prep time would be getting the torpedo ready beforehand; i.e. flooding the tube, charging the compressed air impulse system, etc.

Quote:

Yeah, indeed in SH3 you can set a simultaneous salvo, which pretty much makes them run very close to each other.I know that in-game it makes no difference, but it seem to me that a torpedo exploding agains the hull of a ship would probably detonate or damage a torpedo close enough - say 20 or 30 feet, maybe even more, specially them being so delicate and flawed. So it seems strange that a skipper would choose to fire a simultaneous salvo such as SH3 permits.

I have gone ingame to stop guessing and see how that works (SH4, that is). Indeed, in all-stop and at periscope depth, even if you fire all 6 tubes as fast as you can (hitting 'fire' a fraction of a second from each other), the tubes will fire in order with several seconds (3-4) apart from each other.

Yes, it's curious the differences here, but there are so many things in SH4 that were left in an unfinished state that I'm not surprised. Too bad they dumbed down the firing proceedure in this game. Firing a torpedo should be more complicated than firing a revolver.

Daniel Prates · 06-29-11, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorpX

Too bad they dumbed down the firing proceedure in this game. Firing a torpedo should be more complicated than firing a revolver.

You said it. Flooding, for instance. Even 'dangerous waters' depicts the problem of flooding prior to firing.

Stealhead · 06-29-11, 06:27 PM

What do you mean by problem of flooding tubes before firing? I assume you mean the problem of keeping the sub balanced true it is a problem but in SH4 the crew just manages the balance.It would be nice if it was more detailed like having a consonance if you flooded too many tubes suddenly or fired several tubes at once.It would also be fun if they just simulated in trim and ballast and all that.

I notice that in books most crews spaced each fish around 6 seconds apart or more I'd imagine the main reason for this would be to allow the crew to keep the boat in the correct ballast.

06-27-11, 10:13 AM	#1
Daniel Prates Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Curitiba, Brazil Posts: 938 Downloads: 65 Uploads: 0	Simultaneous detonations In the in-game experience, i've noticed that you can fire all your torps at praticaly the same time, and they will all explode upon contact (providing none are duds), even if they are shot, say, a fraction of a second from each other. My point is: in real life, the detonation of the first torpedo could or could not induce a premature detonation on the second torpedo coming just behind it? Or damage its firing pistol, or wrecking it complete, or etc etc etc? My point is, torpedos were so delicate, that I often wonder if a skipper would wait a few seconds between torpedoes shots, just to avoid the first detonation causing any damage to the other torp following just behind. What do you history buffs have to say about it?

06-27-11, 11:01 AM	#2
Dogfish40 Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: LA Area, Central coast, California Posts: 1,023 Downloads: 827 Uploads: 0	Ahoy Daniel, You have an interesting point. So far though, I have not read of any "domino" effect per say of one torpedo setting off another. This would have definitely been an issue looked upon early in the design faze of the torpedoes. There were a number of reasons for prematures. Prematures were most often a result of the magnetic exploder being set too fine resulting in the fish going off for any reason once it armed or got even near a ship much less under it. The firing pin issue was another problem in itself but unless a piece of shrapnel actually hit the pin, it probably wouldn't be set off by an explosion. I'll keep looking out for anything on the subject. I've also read of Skippers counting between firing, weather of not this was part of the reason, I don't know for sure. It might have been part of their firing solution. D40 __________________ *Dogfish40*

06-27-11, 07:21 PM	#5
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,362 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	In some of the torpedo books there is mention of a counter-mining mechanism. That may be what you are talking about. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

06-28-11, 05:02 PM	#8
magic452 Sea Lord Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Reno Nevada USA Posts: 1,860 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Well in the early war they were happy just to get them to go off at all. It may have been a small concern but the methods use to fire pretty much eliminated any problem and I have never heard of any real concern by ships captains etc. In theory it could happen with a fast speed setting right behind a slow one or two torpedoes aimed very close to each other. Never heard of it happening though. In the game it has no effect at all. Magic __________________ Reported lost 11 Feb. 1942 Signature by depthtok33l

06-27-11, 02:23 PM	#3
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	I use TMO, plus other mods, but have never had this issue, but I'm not sure what you mean by a fraction of time. Historically, torps couldn't be fired at the same time, most skippers ordered 6 second intervals, but a few more seconds would pass before the torp would launch, prolly around 10 seconds. The time intervals had more to do with correct spreads than worry about a premature causing problems for other torps, but in game due to the stop and start speeds of ships it's best to get them out as soon as you can based on your method. I often shoot by the wire, so I fire when the part of the ship I want to hit crosses the wire and that has more to do with the speed of the ship as far as timing when to fire. In game, even the fastest you can shoot one after the other is about 3 seconds no matter how fast you click all the fire buttons together. Historically, you could fire one as soon as the other cleared and I'm sure it was done, but most waited some seconds. If you're say 6th torp is hitting a target within seconds of the first one you fired, something is amiss, there should be about a 9-12 second difference between 1 and 6 torp which can be seen using the redline on the watch. Certainly historically a premature could disrupt another torp, but that would be rare due to timing and course, in game prematures do not effect other torps. I agree the game is probably off some historically, they do hit close together if fired quickly one after the other, but when you say a fraction of time for all 6....I don't see that.

06-28-11, 02:38 AM	#6
Mescator Soundman Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 141 Downloads: 49 Uploads: 0	I recall in Wahoo one of Mortons prematures either detonated or killed a couple of other torpedoes in the spread, but it's the only occasion i've heard of it.

06-29-11, 01:50 PM	#12
Daniel Prates Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Curitiba, Brazil Posts: 938 Downloads: 65 Uploads: 0	I see. Yet another reason not to fire them simultaneously.

06-29-11, 06:27 PM	#15
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	What do you mean by problem of flooding tubes before firing? I assume you mean the problem of keeping the sub balanced true it is a problem but in SH4 the crew just manages the balance.It would be nice if it was more detailed like having a consonance if you flooded too many tubes suddenly or fired several tubes at once.It would also be fun if they just simulated in trim and ballast and all that. I notice that in books most crews spaced each fish around 6 seconds apart or more I'd imagine the main reason for this would be to allow the crew to keep the boat in the correct ballast.