Simultaneous detonations

[Platapus]

In some of the torpedo books there is mention of a counter-mining mechanism. That may be what you are talking about.

[Daniel Prates]

Originally Posted by Platapus

In some of the torpedo books there is mention of a counter-mining mechanism. That may be what you are talking about.

No dude, what i'm talking about is a simple question: can the explosion of a torpedo interfere with another torpedo coming just behind it? Was that a historicaly documented concern for skippers?

[magic452]

Well in the early war they were happy just to get them to go off at all.

It may have been a small concern but the methods use to fire pretty much eliminated any problem and I have never heard of any real concern by ships captains etc. In theory it could happen with a fast speed setting right behind a slow one or two torpedoes aimed very close to each other. Never heard of it happening though.

In the game it has no effect at all.

Magic

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Daniel Prates

No dude, what i'm talking about is a simple question: can the explosion of a torpedo interfere with another torpedo coming just behind it? Was that a historicaly documented concern for skippers?

If you use the historical 8 or 10 sec. interval, it should not be a problem. What would happen in-game if you fire them off close together, I don't know. You might have to figure this out yourself. I think in SH 3, one can use a salvo mode that fires them quickly, so apparently it is not an issue there.

[Daniel Prates]

Originally Posted by TorpX

If you use the historical 8 or 10 sec. interval, it should not be a problem. What would happen in-game if you fire them off close together, I don't know. You might have to figure this out yourself. I think in SH 3, one can use a salvo mode that fires them quickly, so apparently it is not an issue there.

Yeah, indeed in SH3 you can set a simultaneous salvo, which pretty much makes them run very close to each other.I know that in-game it makes no difference, but it seem to me that a torpedo exploding agains the hull of a ship would probably detonate or damage a torpedo close enough - say 20 or 30 feet, maybe even more, specially them being so delicate and flawed. So it seems strange that a skipper would choose to fire a simultaneous salvo such as SH3 permits.

I have gone ingame to stop guessing and see how that works (SH4, that is). Indeed, in all-stop and at periscope depth, even if you fire all 6 tubes as fast as you can (hitting 'fire' a fraction of a second from each other), the tubes will fire in order with several seconds (3-4) apart from each other.

Now I don't know why that is. I know that loading and firing a torpedo is a complex operation. But assuming all tubes are flooded and ready to fire, it should be possible to fire them all at once, and in such case they should leave their tubes also all at once.

That would be of course unwise - they could bump into eachother and cause a tragedy.

So this may explain why it was standard procedure to wait a few seconds between shots. Skippers would never do simultaneous shots even if the machinery allows it, because of the risk of two torpedoes colliding just in front of the sub.

Considering that, it puzzles me that SH3 has an 'all-out simultaneous salvo' firing mode.

[razark]

Originally Posted by Daniel Prates

But assuming all tubes are flooded and ready to fire, it should be possible to fire them all at once, and in such case they should leave their tubes also all at once.

That would be of course unwise - they could bump into eachother and cause a tragedy.

Torpedoes bumping into each other would be a minor issue. You'd probably be to busy to even notice.

Imagine the weight of a single torpedo. Multiply by six. Now, suddenly remove that weight from one end of a carefully balanced lever. What happens?

As each torpedo is fired, the crew must work to keep the boat level, replacing the weight of the torpedo with an equivalent weight of water, redistributing the ballast water, etc. Even if the crew was fast enough and knew exactly how much when and where, I doubt the machinery would be able to handle it. You would end up with the boat's bow suddenly popping out of the water, which is not exactly the best thing when you're trying to be sneaky.

[Daniel Prates]

I see. Yet another reason not to fire them simultaneously.

[TorpX]

Torpedoes bumping into each other would be a minor issue. You'd probably be to busy to even notice.

It depends on what you consider a minor issue. Contact between torpedos would most likely result in an explosion or all the torps running erratic. You would not notice the bumping, but would notice that you missed your target.

Imagine the weight of a single torpedo. Multiply by six. Now, suddenly remove that weight from one end of a carefully balanced lever. What happens?

As each torpedo is fired, the crew must work to keep the boat level, replacing the weight of the torpedo with an equivalent weight of water, redistributing the ballast water, etc. Even if the crew was fast enough and knew exactly how much when and where, I doubt the machinery would be able to handle it. You would end up with the boat's bow suddenly popping out of the water, which is not exactly the best thing when you're trying to be sneaky.

When the torpedo is fired, as it leaves the tube, a poppet valve vents the air in the tube back into the boat. This is helpful in that there will be no big impulse bubble coming up to the surface to mark the position, and water will flood back into the tube to balance the weight lost (more or less). I suspect they could have fired torpedos rapidly, if there was some need to do so. (Evidently, there wasn't.) Most of the prep time would be getting the torpedo ready beforehand; i.e. flooding the tube, charging the compressed air impulse system, etc.

Yeah, indeed in SH3 you can set a simultaneous salvo, which pretty much makes them run very close to each other.I know that in-game it makes no difference, but it seem to me that a torpedo exploding agains the hull of a ship would probably detonate or damage a torpedo close enough - say 20 or 30 feet, maybe even more, specially them being so delicate and flawed. So it seems strange that a skipper would choose to fire a simultaneous salvo such as SH3 permits.

I have gone ingame to stop guessing and see how that works (SH4, that is). Indeed, in all-stop and at periscope depth, even if you fire all 6 tubes as fast as you can (hitting 'fire' a fraction of a second from each other), the tubes will fire in order with several seconds (3-4) apart from each other.

Yes, it's curious the differences here, but there are so many things in SH4 that were left in an unfinished state that I'm not surprised. Too bad they dumbed down the firing proceedure in this game. Firing a torpedo should be more complicated than firing a revolver.

[commandosolo2009]

Originally Posted by Daniel Prates

Yeah, indeed in SH3 you can set a simultaneous salvo, which pretty much makes them run very close to each other.I know that in-game it makes no difference, but it seem to me that a torpedo exploding agains the hull of a ship would probably detonate or damage a torpedo close enough - say 20 or 30 feet, maybe even more, specially them being so delicate and flawed. So it seems strange that a skipper would choose to fire a simultaneous salvo such as SH3 permits.

I have gone ingame to stop guessing and see how that works (SH4, that is). Indeed, in all-stop and at periscope depth, even if you fire all 6 tubes as fast as you can (hitting 'fire' a fraction of a second from each other), the tubes will fire in order with several seconds (3-4) apart from each other.

Now I don't know why that is. I know that loading and firing a torpedo is a complex operation. But assuming all tubes are flooded and ready to fire, it should be possible to fire them all at once, and in such case they should leave their tubes also all at once.

That would be of course unwise - they could bump into eachother and cause a tragedy.

So this may explain why it was standard procedure to wait a few seconds between shots. Skippers would never do simultaneous shots even if the machinery allows it, because of the risk of two torpedoes colliding just in front of the sub.

Considering that, it puzzles me that SH3 has an 'all-out simultaneous salvo' firing mode.

Realism dictated that firing torpedoes was on the move with practically 2-3 degrees down bubble on the fore plane to counter rise by impulse pressure. That is not depicted in U571 (since firing all tubes was possible, but a hell of a rise could expose the bow on surface, hence the down angle on the nose. In game however, a time taken to fire 2 torpedoes to simultaneously impact together target ships hull, is doable. A mix of slow and fast is in order. So if a target is 1000 meters on firing bearing, 1000 m/ 25m\s and 1000 m/ 12.5m/s is the answer. Subtract fast from slow, then subtract 3 for actual run.

[Dogfish40]

[QUOTE=Daniel Prates;1693087]No dude, what i'm talking about is a simple question: can the explosion of a torpedo interfere with another torpedo coming just behind it? Was that a historicaly documented concern for skippers?[/QUOTE]

No. The answer is a simple no. As for being a concern for skippers, the effects of oneTorpedo on otherTorpedos fired in a salvo were not a concern as has been posted here below, the fastest torpedos could be fired was six to ten seconds, (not the verbal orders but the actual firing) by the time six seconds has gone by, the distance between the fish was too great to say, bump the next torpedo off course much less cause other fish to explode. I haven't read everything yet but I've read quite a lot and have never come across this as a worry for the Fleet boats.
Good Hunting Mate
D40