Torpedoes going under ship

tmdgm · 05-06-11, 11:28 PM

I'm using TMO 2.0 and RSRD. I have zinbu Maru in front of me. His draft is 15 ft

I set my torps to ~5 feet depth, contact, high speed. I fire six torps and all six go under the ship.

I play again, set my depth to the lowest possible depth allowed.

Again, all torps go under the ship.

This is not only not possible but unrealistic.

am i missing something? I've had this go under the ship issue before, but this one is unbelievable.

WernherVonTrapp · 05-06-11, 11:41 PM

I've had that happen in the stock version and in RFB quite some time ago and usually with the same ship. Is the ship's screws out of the water? That's usually the case and the last time I had this happen, it was because I had another add-on installed that was conflicting with the Mod. Sometimes it can happen if you don't clean out your saved games before starting a new career too. There also might be other reasons but that's what caused it when it happened to me. I haven't experienced that in TMO yet.
The only way around it in my case, was to resort to the deck gun.

CapnScurvy · 05-07-11, 07:53 AM

There's a couple of places that set the draught in the game for a particular ship. I'm not at my regular computer, so I'm unable to check the Zinbu's .sim file found in its Data/Sea folder of TMO. The culprit is probably found in this file. It can be opened with skwasjer's Silent 3ditor.

The Recognition Manual "draught" entry comes from the Data/Sea/ .cfg file. This entry lists in meters the draught of each target ship. It has nothing to do with the actual mechanics of the draught though, I've set this figure to 100 meters and no change comes from it (except to change the RM figure). This file can be opened with Windows Notepad.

It's not surprising there can be an error found in the .sim file. Lots of entries to trip you up.

One note about the Data/Sea/ .cfg file; not all entries are just for listing a measurement in the Recognition Manual.

For instance the "Mast=" figure lists in meters the Mast Height found in the RM. It also is the figure used to calculate the math equation for the Stadimeter manual targeting. Unlike the "Draft=" parameter, the "Mast=" entry actually does more than simply state a measurement. An example of an error found in TMO 2.0 is the Mast=20 figure found in the Hiyru CV's Recognition Manual page. This file entry goes back to the first few months of SH4 being released. I think the stock mast height was changed to 31 meters around patch 1.3 or 1.4. For TMO its a simple error of plugging in an old file, for a later changed one. As it is, to have a correct manual targeting mast height for the Hiyru the figure needs to read 37 something meters. A huge difference from 20 meters in height for TMO (or 31 meters for the stock game.).

Daniel Prates · 05-07-11, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WernherVonTrapp

Is the ship's screws out of the water?

That could very well be it, in rough seas it is usual for the ship's stern or bow to be coming inside and outside the water level. Still, magnetic influence should not be enough to detonate the torpedo?

tmdgm · 05-07-11, 05:08 PM

I did forget to mention it was NOT in rough seas. Seas were very very calm. Sorry, meant to mention that last night cuz that would've been my first thought as well.

I'll have to play again tonight and see if the screws are out of the water, but I'm pretty sure this is a bug, maybe something wrong with the draft input as per Capn scurvy. None of the torpedoes came back as duds. Every single torpedo went under the ship, 6 of em. I went back and replayed the saved game file (granted with the same 6 torpedoes) and all 6 went under the ship again. Maybe next time i'll turn around and try my aft torps just to be sure, but i'm bettin they go under as well.

I guess you can say this was possible in real life. But I'm guessing this should not be possible in the game (not 6 of em running at min depth in calm seas anyway) unless there is a bug/bad data.

Also, i'm not using any other mods. Using tmo 2.0 with RSRD.

I will admit, i do have old saved games i could delete.

CapnScruvy, where can i find this editor to open the .sim file? i'm just surprised noone else noticed this. maybe noone ran into the dreaded hovering zinbu maru

Anthony W. · 05-07-11, 05:37 PM

I get that A LOT when I'm firing at convoy escorts.

Platapus · 05-07-11, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmdgm

I play again, set my depth to the lowest possible depth allowed.

Again, all torps go under the ship.

This is not only not possible but unrealistic.

Depending on the year, this is not only possible but very realistic. The Mk-14s in the early years were running pretty deep. Officially BuOrd had them running 11 feet deeper, but Swede's tests showed almost 15 feet deeper.

Even if we accept BuOrd's 11 feet number. 15 foot draft and a torpedo setting at 5 feet (minimum) that torpedo will run 1 foot under the ship and that is not taking into account the swells.

I would say running under a 15 foot keel ship in normal seas, during '42/'43 is entirely possible.

I think you just had some bad luck averages. On a recent mission I had six impact duds in a row. Normally you can anticipate 25% will explode (early years) but I got some bad luck averages and all six were duds.

tmdgm · 05-08-11, 03:10 AM

welp, i replayed again, except only difference was i changed the torps to be contact/influence as opposed to just contact. 4 out of the 6 torps hit.

the torps still looked like they were going to go under the ship on the external cam, but that magnetic must have triggered. Confirmed propeller was in the water (calm seas).

Sooo, i always thought it was better to use just "contact" torps early war (it's 1942). Should i just stick with contact influence going forward?

CapnScurvy · 05-08-11, 07:35 AM

A follow up on the Zinbu .sim files for TMO 2.0.

The Zinbu uses the stock .sim file.

Looking into TMO 2.0 (and its upgrade to 2.1) it does not change the stock Data/Sea/NKMCS_Zinbu/NKMCS_Zinbu.sim file. I looked into the stock file, there is nothing out of the ordinary in the Zinbu's make-up when compared to other freighters. So, the problem isn't in the draft not being set properly.

tmgdm, you asked where can you find the Silent 3ditor? You can find it through the "Sticky" thread at the top of the "SH 4 Fleet Boat Mods Workshop" under the "SH4 Popular Mods, Tools, Technical advice and Tactical tips", or use this shortcut to the thread.

Anthony W. · 05-08-11, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmdgm

welp, i replayed again, except only difference was i changed the torps to be contact/influence as opposed to just contact. 4 out of the 6 torps hit.

the torps still looked like they were going to go under the ship on the external cam, but that magnetic must have triggered. Confirmed propeller was in the water (calm seas).

Sooo, i always thought it was better to use just "contact" torps early war (it's 1942). Should i just stick with contact influence going forward?

Wow - I NEVER get that lucky with the magnetic exploder.

Stealhead · 05-08-11, 07:58 PM

Im not sure how you got those results the contact influence should be worse not better than contact in game as they where in real life in fact the subs where commanded some time in early 43 once the issues with magnetic where confirmed not use that mode at all later they simply did come with magnetic mode at all.

Early war until 43' you should not waste the time of using the contact influence only use the contact mode and set the depth shallow also try to use the low speed setting(unless using mk.23s) that will give you the highest chances of not getting duds deep runners and premature explosions.

No mater what though if you have duds on there is a chance that any type of torpedo will dud out but you can reduce your chances of getting one.Just think how a real sub crew must have felt early in the wat when in some cases not a single torpedo worked correctly.Personally in game I hate the true duds that hit but don't explode the most huge bummer.I have not used a set a torpedo to magnetic in SH4 for several years to be honest with TMO and duds on doing so will result in frustration and lot of yelling "here I am shoot me!!" to the IJN without doing any real damage to them first.

Look at the realistic torpedo setting threads on the site and follow the guide lines myself I'd say I only get one maybe two duds on most patrols rarely I might get five or six.

etheberge · 05-08-11, 08:44 PM

In my last patrol I encountered a lightly escorted northbound convoy east of Luzon on Christmas eve 1941. Spent a good 5 hours game time doing an end around and getting in perfect firing position ahead, no escorts in front of the convoy at all, the two escorts were hanging out at the back end of the convoy. This was all set to be a slaughter.

I fired off my entire load of 16 torps at the leading ships in 2-3 attacks before the two escorts cornered me.

Results:

4 deep-runners went right under the target's keel without exploding.
2 prematures
6 duds
3 misses
1 hit, ship didn't sink and kept going.

Newport Torpedo Station probably heard me swearing at them all the way over in Rhode Island.

Stealhead · 05-08-11, 10:38 PM

The Mk.14 until fully fixed later in the war ran about 10 feet deeper than set on average(notice "about" they might run deeper than +10 or less you cant know for sure) which was one reason that the magnetic mode failed (running too deep to sense the ships field) the other problem was that the magnetic exploder itself failed often to detect magnetic fields properly in the first place and got thrown off by all sorts of things causing it to explode early because they ran only a few highly controlled unrealistic tests with them before the war.There are tons of articles on the web about the whole Mk.14 affair.

Another issue was that the torpedoes contact detonator tended to get crushed before it was able to fully set it self off or was unable to set off at all. This was cured by using only the low speed setting and avoiding certain AOBs. So there where 3 different things wrong with the original mk.14 in its original form and they where not confirmed until 1943 after tests that Lockwood ordered.

Because of deep running and the flaky magnetic dets this makes the failure rate of a magnetic mode mk.14 pretty high so just dont bother with them.Best bet set you torps to around 5 feet contact low speed that way they are most likely to go boom against a ships hull.

05-06-11, 11:28 PM	#1
tmdgm Engineer Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 219 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	Torpedoes going under ship I'm using TMO 2.0 and RSRD. I have zinbu Maru in front of me. His draft is 15 ft I set my torps to ~5 feet depth, contact, high speed. I fire six torps and all six go under the ship. I play again, set my depth to the lowest possible depth allowed. Again, all torps go under the ship. This is not only not possible but unrealistic. am i missing something? I've had this go under the ship issue before, but this one is unbelievable.

05-06-11, 11:41 PM	#2
WernherVonTrapp Admiral Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Now, alot farther from NYC. Posts: 2,228 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 0	I've had that happen in the stock version and in RFB quite some time ago and usually with the same ship. Is the ship's screws out of the water? That's usually the case and the last time I had this happen, it was because I had another add-on installed that was conflicting with the Mod. Sometimes it can happen if you don't clean out your saved games before starting a new career too. There also might be other reasons but that's what caused it when it happened to me. I haven't experienced that in TMO yet. The only way around it in my case, was to resort to the deck gun. __________________ "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." -Miyamoto Musashi ------------------------------------------------------- "What is truth?" -Pontius Pilate

05-07-11, 05:37 PM	#6
Anthony W. Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 850 Downloads: 130 Uploads: 0	I get that A LOT when I'm firing at convoy escorts. __________________ Sunken Mustangs Proud Ford Mustang owner "Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!" - Admiral David Farragut Run silent - run deep - keep the baffles clear - targets front and center. Private pilot and history buff

05-08-11, 07:58 PM	#11
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Im not sure how you got those results the contact influence should be worse not better than contact in game as they where in real life in fact the subs where commanded some time in early 43 once the issues with magnetic where confirmed not use that mode at all later they simply did come with magnetic mode at all. Early war until 43' you should not waste the time of using the contact influence only use the contact mode and set the depth shallow also try to use the low speed setting(unless using mk.23s) that will give you the highest chances of not getting duds deep runners and premature explosions. No mater what though if you have duds on there is a chance that any type of torpedo will dud out but you can reduce your chances of getting one.Just think how a real sub crew must have felt early in the wat when in some cases not a single torpedo worked correctly.Personally in game I hate the true duds that hit but don't explode the most huge bummer.I have not used a set a torpedo to magnetic in SH4 for several years to be honest with TMO and duds on doing so will result in frustration and lot of yelling "here I am shoot me!!" to the IJN without doing any real damage to them first. Look at the realistic torpedo setting threads on the site and follow the guide lines myself I'd say I only get one maybe two duds on most patrols rarely I might get five or six. Last edited by Stealhead; 05-08-11 at 08:12 PM.

05-08-11, 08:44 PM	#12
etheberge Watch Officer Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Montreal, QC Posts: 345 Downloads: 614 Uploads: 10	In my last patrol I encountered a lightly escorted northbound convoy east of Luzon on Christmas eve 1941. Spent a good 5 hours game time doing an end around and getting in perfect firing position ahead, no escorts in front of the convoy at all, the two escorts were hanging out at the back end of the convoy. This was all set to be a slaughter. I fired off my entire load of 16 torps at the leading ships in 2-3 attacks before the two escorts cornered me. Results: 4 deep-runners went right under the target's keel without exploding. 2 prematures 6 duds 3 misses 1 hit, ship didn't sink and kept going. Newport Torpedo Station probably heard me swearing at them all the way over in Rhode Island. __________________ 11 War Patrols / 56 ships sunk or damaged for 212,022 tons Zero casualties throughout the war Scuttled on 8 May, 1945 in Sonderburg Bay, after German surrender

05-07-11, 05:08 PM	#5
tmdgm Engineer Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 219 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	I did forget to mention it was NOT in rough seas. Seas were very very calm. Sorry, meant to mention that last night cuz that would've been my first thought as well. I'll have to play again tonight and see if the screws are out of the water, but I'm pretty sure this is a bug, maybe something wrong with the draft input as per Capn scurvy. None of the torpedoes came back as duds. Every single torpedo went under the ship, 6 of em. I went back and replayed the saved game file (granted with the same 6 torpedoes) and all 6 went under the ship again. Maybe next time i'll turn around and try my aft torps just to be sure, but i'm bettin they go under as well. I guess you can say this was possible in real life. But I'm guessing this should not be possible in the game (not 6 of em running at min depth in calm seas anyway) unless there is a bug/bad data. Also, i'm not using any other mods. Using tmo 2.0 with RSRD. I will admit, i do have old saved games i could delete. CapnScruvy, where can i find this editor to open the .sim file? i'm just surprised noone else noticed this. maybe noone ran into the dreaded hovering zinbu maru

05-08-11, 03:10 AM	#8
tmdgm Engineer Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 219 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	welp, i replayed again, except only difference was i changed the torps to be contact/influence as opposed to just contact. 4 out of the 6 torps hit. the torps still looked like they were going to go under the ship on the external cam, but that magnetic must have triggered. Confirmed propeller was in the water (calm seas). Sooo, i always thought it was better to use just "contact" torps early war (it's 1942). Should i just stick with contact influence going forward?

05-08-11, 10:38 PM	#13
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	The Mk.14 until fully fixed later in the war ran about 10 feet deeper than set on average(notice "about" they might run deeper than +10 or less you cant know for sure) which was one reason that the magnetic mode failed (running too deep to sense the ships field) the other problem was that the magnetic exploder itself failed often to detect magnetic fields properly in the first place and got thrown off by all sorts of things causing it to explode early because they ran only a few highly controlled unrealistic tests with them before the war.There are tons of articles on the web about the whole Mk.14 affair. Another issue was that the torpedoes contact detonator tended to get crushed before it was able to fully set it self off or was unable to set off at all. This was cured by using only the low speed setting and avoiding certain AOBs. So there where 3 different things wrong with the original mk.14 in its original form and they where not confirmed until 1943 after tests that Lockwood ordered. Because of deep running and the flaky magnetic dets this makes the failure rate of a magnetic mode mk.14 pretty high so just dont bother with them.Best bet set you torps to around 5 feet contact low speed that way they are most likely to go boom against a ships hull.