Knowing too much about Torpedoes

Captain1966 · 10-22-10, 02:12 PM

Running TMO 2.0 and RSRDC. I like to play as historically as possible, such as following the early war tactic of submerged day patrols and so on.

But not sure how to handle the torpedo issue. We know now that the magnetic exploder was crap and was deactivated by SUBPAC in June 1943 and in Australia in Jan 1944. But I have also read in Silent Victory and from interviews that before the deactivation order the crews would tinker with the exploders and use contact. Some skippers even falsifying reports as to what exploder they used on patrol.

Maybe early was I'll use Magnetic and just cross my fingers...

Or should I have my crew tinker with the exploder and pretend I'm not looking....

Armistead · 10-22-10, 03:55 PM

I carry about 50% M10's....they work. I feel better cause I usually stay in a S boat until about later 42, so realistic, but I have no problem loading a good load of em in a Gato. I posted this elsewhere if you did see it. It's actually for SH2, but it's basically all the same factors in the torps in SH4, just values are different. Also just good info, but what it explains is the game doe's have values for. If you use M14's early war, angle of impact doe's matter, the more the better.
They will also work better on slow speeds. If waters are calm use influence, if not, impact.

Torpedo Types

Mark 10 a.k.a. "Old but reliable ammo"
Available since: Always
Range and speed: 3200@36kts (Single Setting)
Warhead power: 80-160 radius 3-6m
Depth keeping fault chance: 70% chance of deviating 0.8m-1.2m
Dud chance: 1% (0˚-70˚); 25% (70˚-90˚)
Renown cost: 0
Notes: Default torpedo for the S-Class. Slower and with a shorter range than the mk14, but extremely reliable.

Mark 14 a.k.a. "Standard ammo"
Available since: Always
Range and speed: 8200@31kts (Slow); 4100@46kts (Fast)
Warhead power: 100-170 radius 3-7m
Depth keeping fault chance: 70% chance of deviating 1.5m-3.3m
Dud chance: 1% (0˚-35˚); 34% (35˚-70˚); 99% (70˚-90˚)
Renown cost: 0
Notes: Default torpedo for all modern fleet boats. Faster and with a longer range than the mk10, it packs a roughly 20% stronger punch but is much less reliable.

Mark 16 a.k.a. "Hard hitter... if it hits"
Available since: 1945-01-01
Range and speed: 12500@46kts (Single Setting)
Warhead power: 180-250 radius 3.5-8m
Depth keeping fault chance: 70% chance of deviating 1.5m-3.3m
Dud chance: 4% (0˚-35˚); 45% (35˚-70˚); 100% (70˚-90˚)
Renown cost: 400
Notes: Fast torpedo with an exceptionally long range, but also terribly unreliable

Mark 18 a.k.a. "New and reliable ammo"
Available since: 1943-07-12
Range and speed: 3650@29kts (Single Setting)
Warhead power: 120-180 radius 3-7
Depth keeping fault chance: 55% chance of deviating 1.2m-2.8m
Dud chance: 1% (0˚-35˚); 34% (35˚-70˚); 99% (70˚-90˚)
Renown cost: 500 (200 from 1944-01-16; 0 from 1944-09-01)
Notes: Slower, 10% more powerful, with a shorter range and much more reliable than the mk14

Mark 23 a.k.a. "The new standard ammo"
Available since: 1943-01-01
Range and speed: 4100@46kts (Single Setting)
Warhead power: 120-180 radius 3-7m
Depth keeping fault chance: 70% chance of deviating 1.5m-3.3m
Dud chance: 1% (0˚-35˚); 34% (35˚-70˚); 99% (70˚-90˚)
Renown cost: 100 (0 from 16-01-1944)
Notes: Same range, speed and reliability than the mk14 but toughly 10% more powerful. Definitely replaces the mk10 as the "standard" torpedo since 16-01-1944.

Mark 27 a.k.a. "Homing destroyer defense"
Available since: 1944-01-01
Range and speed: 4570@12kts (Single Setting)
Warhead power: 50-100 radius 1.5-5
Depth keeping fault chance: N/A
Dud chance: 1% (0˚-25˚)
Renown cost: 500
Notes: Slow acoustic homing torpedo with a small warhead primarily used for defense against destroyers.

General Torpedo Information

Dud torpedoes
Dud torpedoes depend primarily on the angle of impact and secondarily on the torpedo type, selected torpedo speed and time period. In general, all torpedoes have a high dud chance at low angles and a much lower dud chance at high (close to 90) angles. I believe this was modeled to represent the impact pin getting bent instead of triggering the explosive charge (the lower the angle, the higher the speed – the higher the chance of the pin bending)... if so, it's definitely well done. Do note that in my experience there is no such thing as a "magnetic dud chance". Excluding prematures and other issues, the torp will either 1) hit and normal dud rules apply; 2) run less than 2m below the keel and explode if mag det was on; OR 3) run deep.
Also note that running mk14 torps at slow speed will result in a 50% dud reduction factor. This is a huge advantage when shooting mk14s taht will impact at angles between 35˚ and 90˚.

Premature torpedo detonations
Premature detonations depend exclusively on the torpedo type, time period and state of the sea (waves). In rough seas, look for up to 60% prematures, while in calm seas this value drops significantly. It has been mentioned that the magnetic detonator has nothing to do with prematures, however, I haven't been able to precisely verify it. If this was indeed the case, there would be absolutely no reason in the game to switch from impact+magnetic to impact only detonation.

Depth keeping problems
This is the major issue with magnetic detonations. Torpedoes have a very high chance (70% - with only the mk18 having 55%) of having depth keeping problems and the depth range varies up to 3.3m in the worst scenario (above OR below). This makes it really hard to get a keel shot as the magnetic detonation range is only 2 meters from the keel and the depth keeping problems mean that even a perfect shot will almost 70% of the time either hit high or run deep.
Lesson learned? aiming 1.3 m ABOVE the keel level and leaving impact + mag detonator on will give you the best hit ratio. This can be lessened to 0.8m ABOVE keel if shooting mk18s and to even 0.8m BELOW keel if shooting mk10s.

Torpedo minimum arming distance
arming_distance is set across all torps to 220 meters except the mk27, which has 150 meters.

Torpedo max dive angle
max_dive_angle is set to 20 degrees for all torpedo types and I don't believe that it really has an impact on most firings

Torpedo maximum turn angle
max_turn_angle is 135˚ for all torps except the mk27, which has 180˚

Magnetic detonation range
mag_detonation_range is 2m for all torps except for the mk27, which has 1

Circular runner torpedos
circle_runner_chance is 0.5% for all torps except for the mk27, which has 0%

Gyro problems
The chance of having gyro problems is 0.3% at the introduction time of all torpedos and drops to 0.2% in later periods for all torps except for the mk16. The max_deviation when having gyro problems is always 50˚. This does not apply to the mk27.

Homing torpedos
The mk27 will run straight for 200m before homing.

Depth (???)
This parameter I still haven't figured out - It's 1.5 for the mk27 and 1.8 for all other torps ... is this the default torpedo depth in meters?

Platapus · 10-22-10, 07:41 PM

coughcoughshouldbeastickycoughcough

Diopos · 10-23-10, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain1966

...
Or should I have my crew tinker with the exploder and pretend I'm not looking....

Of course you should! Moral has nothing to do with morality!!!!

.

magic452 · 10-26-10, 01:31 AM

Armistead,
If I'm not mistaken the range for the MK 14 on high speed is 45,000 yards not 41,000 and low speed is 9,000 yards, at least in the game.

But some very good info there, a useful reference.

Thanks
Magic

Armistead · 10-26-10, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magic452

Armistead,
If I'm not mistaken the range for the MK 14 on high speed is 45,000 yards not 41,000 and low speed is 9,000 yards, at least in the game.

But some very good info there, a useful reference.

Thanks
Magic

Did you read this part.

"I posted this elsewhere if you did see it. It's actually for SH2, but it's basically all the same factors in the torps in SH4, just values are different. Also just good info, but what it explains is the game doe's have values for."

The values given in torp info are rather standard in SH4, I've heard they're less, but I wouldn't know, my MK14s blow up before they reach the 500 yard mark.

10-22-10, 02:12 PM	#1
Captain1966 Swabbie Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 12 Downloads: 56 Uploads: 0	Knowing too much about Torpedoes Running TMO 2.0 and RSRDC. I like to play as historically as possible, such as following the early war tactic of submerged day patrols and so on. But not sure how to handle the torpedo issue. We know now that the magnetic exploder was crap and was deactivated by SUBPAC in June 1943 and in Australia in Jan 1944. But I have also read in Silent Victory and from interviews that before the deactivation order the crews would tinker with the exploders and use contact. Some skippers even falsifying reports as to what exploder they used on patrol. Maybe early was I'll use Magnetic and just cross my fingers... Or should I have my crew tinker with the exploder and pretend I'm not looking....

10-22-10, 07:41 PM	#3
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,360 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	coughcoughshouldbeastickycoughcough __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

10-26-10, 01:31 AM	#5
magic452 Sea Lord Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Reno Nevada USA Posts: 1,860 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Armistead, If I'm not mistaken the range for the MK 14 on high speed is 45,000 yards not 41,000 and low speed is 9,000 yards, at least in the game. But some very good info there, a useful reference. Thanks Magic __________________ Reported lost 11 Feb. 1942 Signature by depthtok33l

10-22-10, 03:55 PM	#2
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	I carry about 50% M10's....they work. I feel better cause I usually stay in a S boat until about later 42, so realistic, but I have no problem loading a good load of em in a Gato. I posted this elsewhere if you did see it. It's actually for SH2, but it's basically all the same factors in the torps in SH4, just values are different. Also just good info, but what it explains is the game doe's have values for. If you use M14's early war, angle of impact doe's matter, the more the better. They will also work better on slow speeds. If waters are calm use influence, if not, impact. Torpedo Types Mark 10 a.k.a. "Old but reliable ammo" Available since: Always Range and speed: 3200@36kts (Single Setting) Warhead power: 80-160 radius 3-6m Depth keeping fault chance: 70% chance of deviating 0.8m-1.2m Dud chance: 1% (0˚-70˚); 25% (70˚-90˚) Renown cost: 0 Notes: Default torpedo for the S-Class. Slower and with a shorter range than the mk14, but extremely reliable. Mark 14 a.k.a. "Standard ammo" Available since: Always Range and speed: 8200@31kts (Slow); 4100@46kts (Fast) Warhead power: 100-170 radius 3-7m Depth keeping fault chance: 70% chance of deviating 1.5m-3.3m Dud chance: 1% (0˚-35˚); 34% (35˚-70˚); 99% (70˚-90˚) Renown cost: 0 Notes: Default torpedo for all modern fleet boats. Faster and with a longer range than the mk10, it packs a roughly 20% stronger punch but is much less reliable. Mark 16 a.k.a. "Hard hitter... if it hits" Available since: 1945-01-01 Range and speed: 12500@46kts (Single Setting) Warhead power: 180-250 radius 3.5-8m Depth keeping fault chance: 70% chance of deviating 1.5m-3.3m Dud chance: 4% (0˚-35˚); 45% (35˚-70˚); 100% (70˚-90˚) Renown cost: 400 Notes: Fast torpedo with an exceptionally long range, but also terribly unreliable Mark 18 a.k.a. "New and reliable ammo" Available since: 1943-07-12 Range and speed: 3650@29kts (Single Setting) Warhead power: 120-180 radius 3-7 Depth keeping fault chance: 55% chance of deviating 1.2m-2.8m Dud chance: 1% (0˚-35˚); 34% (35˚-70˚); 99% (70˚-90˚) Renown cost: 500 (200 from 1944-01-16; 0 from 1944-09-01) Notes: Slower, 10% more powerful, with a shorter range and much more reliable than the mk14 Mark 23 a.k.a. "The new standard ammo" Available since: 1943-01-01 Range and speed: 4100@46kts (Single Setting) Warhead power: 120-180 radius 3-7m Depth keeping fault chance: 70% chance of deviating 1.5m-3.3m Dud chance: 1% (0˚-35˚); 34% (35˚-70˚); 99% (70˚-90˚) Renown cost: 100 (0 from 16-01-1944) Notes: Same range, speed and reliability than the mk14 but toughly 10% more powerful. Definitely replaces the mk10 as the "standard" torpedo since 16-01-1944. Mark 27 a.k.a. "Homing destroyer defense" Available since: 1944-01-01 Range and speed: 4570@12kts (Single Setting) Warhead power: 50-100 radius 1.5-5 Depth keeping fault chance: N/A Dud chance: 1% (0˚-25˚) Renown cost: 500 Notes: Slow acoustic homing torpedo with a small warhead primarily used for defense against destroyers. General Torpedo Information Dud torpedoes Dud torpedoes depend primarily on the angle of impact and secondarily on the torpedo type, selected torpedo speed and time period. In general, all torpedoes have a high dud chance at low angles and a much lower dud chance at high (close to 90) angles. I believe this was modeled to represent the impact pin getting bent instead of triggering the explosive charge (the lower the angle, the higher the speed – the higher the chance of the pin bending)... if so, it's definitely well done. Do note that in my experience there is no such thing as a "magnetic dud chance". Excluding prematures and other issues, the torp will either 1) hit and normal dud rules apply; 2) run less than 2m below the keel and explode if mag det was on; OR 3) run deep. Also note that running mk14 torps at slow speed will result in a 50% dud reduction factor. This is a huge advantage when shooting mk14s taht will impact at angles between 35˚ and 90˚. Premature torpedo detonations Premature detonations depend exclusively on the torpedo type, time period and state of the sea (waves). In rough seas, look for up to 60% prematures, while in calm seas this value drops significantly. It has been mentioned that the magnetic detonator has nothing to do with prematures, however, I haven't been able to precisely verify it. If this was indeed the case, there would be absolutely no reason in the game to switch from impact+magnetic to impact only detonation. Depth keeping problems This is the major issue with magnetic detonations. Torpedoes have a very high chance (70% - with only the mk18 having 55%) of having depth keeping problems and the depth range varies up to 3.3m in the worst scenario (above OR below). This makes it really hard to get a keel shot as the magnetic detonation range is only 2 meters from the keel and the depth keeping problems mean that even a perfect shot will almost 70% of the time either hit high or run deep. Lesson learned? aiming 1.3 m ABOVE the keel level and leaving impact + mag detonator on will give you the best hit ratio. This can be lessened to 0.8m ABOVE keel if shooting mk18s and to even 0.8m BELOW keel if shooting mk10s. Torpedo minimum arming distance arming_distance is set across all torps to 220 meters except the mk27, which has 150 meters. Torpedo max dive angle max_dive_angle is set to 20 degrees for all torpedo types and I don't believe that it really has an impact on most firings Torpedo maximum turn angle max_turn_angle is 135˚ for all torps except the mk27, which has 180˚ Magnetic detonation range mag_detonation_range is 2m for all torps except for the mk27, which has 1 Circular runner torpedos circle_runner_chance is 0.5% for all torps except for the mk27, which has 0% Gyro problems The chance of having gyro problems is 0.3% at the introduction time of all torpedos and drops to 0.2% in later periods for all torps except for the mk16. The max_deviation when having gyro problems is always 50˚. This does not apply to the mk27. Homing torpedos The mk27 will run straight for 200m before homing. Depth (???) This parameter I still haven't figured out - It's 1.5 for the mk27 and 1.8 for all other torps ... is this the default torpedo depth in meters?