New 'forgiving' fatigue model

sub_optimal · 10-01-10, 09:01 PM

Hi everyone,

I'm interested in creating a new fatigue model, designed to balance historical accuracy and playability. Specifically, I want to make a system which is relatively forgiving when the player forgets about crew management for a bit, but which still leaves the crew generally tired out by the end of a long patrol.

I know that there has been a lot of very sophisticated discussion of fatigue modelling on these forums, unfortunately, much of it seems to have been dropped from the archives, so I don't have the benefit of it directly (unless somebody knows of a way to read old posts). I would very much appreciate comments and advice from those of you who are old hands at this kind of work.

1. Mysteries of the Modelling System

I've worked out, from context, that xx0 means 'surfaced' and xx1 means 'submerged'. Further, I think that 'regular' is non-combat and 'specific' is combat conditions.

I've also worked out what I think is the rank and compartment structure of the numbering system (see below).

I have two important questions, though:
a) How do you control the time compression level at which the fatigue model switches off?
b) Does anybody know, specifically, what the numerical values used in the model mean in practice?

2. Assumptions I Would Like To Make

Ideally, I would like a system in which the crew tires quickly, and rests up quickly. I would like extreme conditions (combat, bad weather) to be punishing to the crew, and cause them to tire, get stressed and injured and make mistakes. However, when this happens it's very difficult for them to recover, as the hot-bunking system provides space for only a fraction of the crew. This also makes the default system less 'forgiving' if the player forgets about crew management for a while (something that could never happen in reality). There are times in which I've tired the whole crew out, and just had to spend a couple of in-game days sitting at periscope depth, shuffling the little blighters through the bunks.

The most intuative way to create these conditions, to my mind, are a) to make the crew a little hardier by decreasing fatigue induced by work and b) to provide additional, alternate places for the crew to relax and recuperate while the bunks are full.

Compartment by Compartment:

Deck Watch
In good weather, this is a pleasant, fresh air duty. The crew should tire slowly, worn out only by the monotony of the horizon. In bad weather, on a U-boat, it's like riding a wild bull while standing under a waterfall. A four hour watch should leave any man tired to the bone. Combat is tricky, in this station: while being hunted, the position feels horribly exposed. While attacking a lone, unarmed ship, not so much. All in all, the feeling of exposure to random bullets should make this an unpleasant duty station in combat.

Guns – both deck and flak
Weather is not an issue here, as these stations cannot be manned in heavy seas. When not in combat, the crew is merely 'training' and values should be identical to the conning tower watch. While in combat, values should probably also be about the same, as the extra hard work of operating the gun will be offset by the psychological value of actually being able to shoot back at the enemy.

Control Room
Out of combat, this is a medium. Anybody who's steered a ship knows that the constant adjustments get tiring after four hours at the helm. On the other hand, it's important not to set the fatigue conditions too harshly, here, as this is where most of the officers work, and officers' work is much lighter. In combat, this is one of the -best- places on the submarine, as the people here have the profound psychological advantage of knowing what's going on. Weather does not effect this station very much.

Torpedo Rooms (Bomb Shops)
Out of combat, there's nothing to do but train. Many modern submarines set up auxiliary bunking in the torpedo rooms. In combat, the loading and unloading of torpedoes is the hardest duty aboard. In bad weather, this is sheer hell. Since bad weather matters across the board, I think the best thing to assume is that any sailor assigned to the torpedo rooms is moving big heavy things around for training, maintenance or combat. Sailors could still hang out there to catch some rest, but they wouldn't be -assigned- there. So medium-hard station in non-combat, very hard station in combat, severe weather modifier.

Active Engine Room
The active engine room is medium-hard in non-combat, hard in combat, and very tiring in heavy weather, due to the tendency to accumulate small injuries.

Inactive Engine Room
The inactive engine room, however, can be used to represent one of those spaces aboard where the crew can take on light duties, rest and regain strength. Slowly, of course, as an engine room is never a pleasant place to hang out.

Damage Control
In combat, this is a hard, wearing station. Out of combat, this is a very light and pleasant duty and another one of those places where sailors can rest up while not actually sleeping.

Radio Room
In combat and out, the sonar and radar watches are two of the most psychologically tiring duties aboard, but -especially- the sonar watch. Unfortunately, however, only one of these stations is generally active at a time. On the surface, the hydrophone operator can do nothing but nap, submerged, the radio man is in roughly the same position. My instinct is to average out the fatigue of these to positions in the assumption that crew could spell one another.

3. My Reconstruction of the Rank/Compartment Structure:

based on basic.cfg

Ranks:
[CREW_0] ;SEAMAN
[CREW_1] ;ABLESEAMAN
[CREW_2] ;LEADINGSEAMAN
[CREW_3] ;PETTYOFFICER
[CREW_4] ;CHIEFPETTYOFFICER
[CREW_5] ;CHIEFBOATSWAIN
[CREW_6] ;SUBLIEUTENANT
[CREW_7] ;LIEUTENANTJR
[CREW_8] ;LIEUTENANTSR

Compartments:
0 Bridge (aka 'Conning Tower Watch')
1 Radio Room
2 Control Room
3 Diesel Engine
4 Electric Engine
5 Bow Torpedo
6 Bow Quarters
7 Stern Quarters
8 Stern Torpedo
9 Deck Gun
10 Flak Guns
11 Unknown - Damage Control?

xx0 - Surfaced
xx1 - Submerged
Regular - noncombat
Specific – Combat

4. First Draft of the 'Forgiving' Model

Formatted for SH3 Commander
NB: I don't know what the actual numbers mean, so these are just guesses until I actually understand how they interact.

Station 'hardness' (based on GW/GWX 8 Hour Model):
Noncombat
- Easy: -0.001
- Regular: 0.001
- Hard: 0.003
Combat
- Easy: 0.01
- Regular: 0.02
- Hard: 0.045
Weather
- Weak Weather Modifier: 0.001
- Hard Weather Modifier: 0.01
- Hellish Weather Modifier: 0.02

[5]
Desc=Sub_Optimal's Forgiving - Experimental
; Crew Structure - for the time being, the same as default
CREW_0|FatigueMax=0.5
CREW_0|FatigueStep=0.2
CREW_1|FatigueMax=0.5
CREW_1|FatigueStep=0.2
CREW_2|FatigueMax=0.5
CREW_2|FatigueStep=0.2
CREW_3|FatigueMax=0.5
CREW_3|FatigueStep=0.1
CREW_4|FatigueMax=0.5
CREW_4|FatigueStep=0.1
CREW_5|FatigueMax=0.5
CREW_5|FatigueStep=0.1
CREW_6|FatigueMax=0.6
CREW_6|FatigueStep=0.05
CREW_7|FatigueMax=0.6
CREW_7|FatigueStep=0.05
CREW_8|FatigueMax=0.6
CREW_8|FatigueStep=0.05
; COMARTMENTS - largely based off GW/GWX 8 Hour
;bridge
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor00=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor00=0.02 ; feeling of exposure to enemy fire
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather0=0.02
; radio
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor10=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor11=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor10=0.015 ; these values
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor11=0.015 ; balanced between stations
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather1=0.001
; control room
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor20=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor21=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor20=0.01 ; knowledge of the situation helps these folks
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor21=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather2=0.001
; diesel
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor30=0.0015
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor31=-0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor30=0.025
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor31=0.0001 ; rest without recovery in battle
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather3=0.017
; electric
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor40=-0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor41=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor40=0.0001 ; rest without recovery in battle
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor41=0.017
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather4=0.001
; bow torp
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor50=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor51=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor50=0.045
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor51=0.045
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather5=0.02 ; watch out for those swinging torps
; quarters
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor60=-0.1 ; this is the same value as in default
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor61=-0.1 ; sleep knits up the ravelled sleeve of care
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor70=-0.1
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor71=-0.1
; stern torp
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor80=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor81=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor80=0.045
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor81=0.045
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather8=0.02
; gun
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor90=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor90=0.02
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather9=0.02
; aa
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor100=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor100=0.02
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather10=0.02
; damage control
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor110=-0.05
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor111=-0.05
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor110=0.02
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor111=0.02
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather11=0.001

10-01-10, 09:01 PM	#1
sub_optimal Watch Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 24 Downloads: 44 Uploads: 0	New 'forgiving' fatigue model Hi everyone, I'm interested in creating a new fatigue model, designed to balance historical accuracy and playability. Specifically, I want to make a system which is relatively forgiving when the player forgets about crew management for a bit, but which still leaves the crew generally tired out by the end of a long patrol. I know that there has been a lot of very sophisticated discussion of fatigue modelling on these forums, unfortunately, much of it seems to have been dropped from the archives, so I don't have the benefit of it directly (unless somebody knows of a way to read old posts). I would very much appreciate comments and advice from those of you who are old hands at this kind of work. 1. Mysteries of the Modelling System I've worked out, from context, that xx0 means 'surfaced' and xx1 means 'submerged'. Further, I think that 'regular' is non-combat and 'specific' is combat conditions. I've also worked out what I think is the rank and compartment structure of the numbering system (see below). I have two important questions, though: a) How do you control the time compression level at which the fatigue model switches off? b) Does anybody know, specifically, what the numerical values used in the model mean in practice? 2. Assumptions I Would Like To Make Ideally, I would like a system in which the crew tires quickly, and rests up quickly. I would like extreme conditions (combat, bad weather) to be punishing to the crew, and cause them to tire, get stressed and injured and make mistakes. However, when this happens it's very difficult for them to recover, as the hot-bunking system provides space for only a fraction of the crew. This also makes the default system less 'forgiving' if the player forgets about crew management for a while (something that could never happen in reality). There are times in which I've tired the whole crew out, and just had to spend a couple of in-game days sitting at periscope depth, shuffling the little blighters through the bunks. The most intuative way to create these conditions, to my mind, are a) to make the crew a little hardier by decreasing fatigue induced by work and b) to provide additional, alternate places for the crew to relax and recuperate while the bunks are full. Compartment by Compartment: Deck Watch In good weather, this is a pleasant, fresh air duty. The crew should tire slowly, worn out only by the monotony of the horizon. In bad weather, on a U-boat, it's like riding a wild bull while standing under a waterfall. A four hour watch should leave any man tired to the bone. Combat is tricky, in this station: while being hunted, the position feels horribly exposed. While attacking a lone, unarmed ship, not so much. All in all, the feeling of exposure to random bullets should make this an unpleasant duty station in combat. Guns – both deck and flak Weather is not an issue here, as these stations cannot be manned in heavy seas. When not in combat, the crew is merely 'training' and values should be identical to the conning tower watch. While in combat, values should probably also be about the same, as the extra hard work of operating the gun will be offset by the psychological value of actually being able to shoot back at the enemy. Control Room Out of combat, this is a medium. Anybody who's steered a ship knows that the constant adjustments get tiring after four hours at the helm. On the other hand, it's important not to set the fatigue conditions too harshly, here, as this is where most of the officers work, and officers' work is much lighter. In combat, this is one of the -best- places on the submarine, as the people here have the profound psychological advantage of knowing what's going on. Weather does not effect this station very much. Torpedo Rooms (Bomb Shops) Out of combat, there's nothing to do but train. Many modern submarines set up auxiliary bunking in the torpedo rooms. In combat, the loading and unloading of torpedoes is the hardest duty aboard. In bad weather, this is sheer hell. Since bad weather matters across the board, I think the best thing to assume is that any sailor assigned to the torpedo rooms is moving big heavy things around for training, maintenance or combat. Sailors could still hang out there to catch some rest, but they wouldn't be -assigned- there. So medium-hard station in non-combat, very hard station in combat, severe weather modifier. Active Engine Room The active engine room is medium-hard in non-combat, hard in combat, and very tiring in heavy weather, due to the tendency to accumulate small injuries. Inactive Engine Room The inactive engine room, however, can be used to represent one of those spaces aboard where the crew can take on light duties, rest and regain strength. Slowly, of course, as an engine room is never a pleasant place to hang out. Damage Control In combat, this is a hard, wearing station. Out of combat, this is a very light and pleasant duty and another one of those places where sailors can rest up while not actually sleeping. Radio Room In combat and out, the sonar and radar watches are two of the most psychologically tiring duties aboard, but -especially- the sonar watch. Unfortunately, however, only one of these stations is generally active at a time. On the surface, the hydrophone operator can do nothing but nap, submerged, the radio man is in roughly the same position. My instinct is to average out the fatigue of these to positions in the assumption that crew could spell one another. 3. My Reconstruction of the Rank/Compartment Structure: based on basic.cfg Ranks: [CREW_0] ;SEAMAN [CREW_1] ;ABLESEAMAN [CREW_2] ;LEADINGSEAMAN [CREW_3] ;PETTYOFFICER [CREW_4] ;CHIEFPETTYOFFICER [CREW_5] ;CHIEFBOATSWAIN [CREW_6] ;SUBLIEUTENANT [CREW_7] ;LIEUTENANTJR [CREW_8] ;LIEUTENANTSR Compartments: 0 Bridge (aka 'Conning Tower Watch') 1 Radio Room 2 Control Room 3 Diesel Engine 4 Electric Engine 5 Bow Torpedo 6 Bow Quarters 7 Stern Quarters 8 Stern Torpedo 9 Deck Gun 10 Flak Guns 11 Unknown - Damage Control? xx0 - Surfaced xx1 - Submerged Regular - noncombat Specific – Combat 4. First Draft of the 'Forgiving' Model Formatted for SH3 Commander NB: I don't know what the actual numbers mean, so these are just guesses until I actually understand how they interact. Station 'hardness' (based on GW/GWX 8 Hour Model): Noncombat - Easy: -0.001 - Regular: 0.001 - Hard: 0.003 Combat - Easy: 0.01 - Regular: 0.02 - Hard: 0.045 Weather - Weak Weather Modifier: 0.001 - Hard Weather Modifier: 0.01 - Hellish Weather Modifier: 0.02 [5] Desc=Sub_Optimal's Forgiving - Experimental ; Crew Structure - for the time being, the same as default CREW_0\|FatigueMax=0.5 CREW_0\|FatigueStep=0.2 CREW_1\|FatigueMax=0.5 CREW_1\|FatigueStep=0.2 CREW_2\|FatigueMax=0.5 CREW_2\|FatigueStep=0.2 CREW_3\|FatigueMax=0.5 CREW_3\|FatigueStep=0.1 CREW_4\|FatigueMax=0.5 CREW_4\|FatigueStep=0.1 CREW_5\|FatigueMax=0.5 CREW_5\|FatigueStep=0.1 CREW_6\|FatigueMax=0.6 CREW_6\|FatigueStep=0.05 CREW_7\|FatigueMax=0.6 CREW_7\|FatigueStep=0.05 CREW_8\|FatigueMax=0.6 CREW_8\|FatigueStep=0.05 ; COMARTMENTS - largely based off GW/GWX 8 Hour ;bridge FATIGUE_COEF\|RegularFactor00=0.001 FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor00=0.02 ; feeling of exposure to enemy fire FATIGUE_COEF\|BadWeather0=0.02 ; radio FATIGUE_COEF\|RegularFactor10=0.001 FATIGUE_COEF\|RegularFactor11=0.001 FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor10=0.015 ; these values FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor11=0.015 ; balanced between stations FATIGUE_COEF\|BadWeather1=0.001 ; control room FATIGUE_COEF\|RegularFactor20=0.001 FATIGUE_COEF\|RegularFactor21=0.001 FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor20=0.01 ; knowledge of the situation helps these folks FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor21=0.01 FATIGUE_COEF\|BadWeather2=0.001 ; diesel FATIGUE_COEF\|RegularFactor30=0.0015 FATIGUE_COEF\|RegularFactor31=-0.001 FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor30=0.025 FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor31=0.0001 ; rest without recovery in battle FATIGUE_COEF\|BadWeather3=0.017 ; electric FATIGUE_COEF\|RegularFactor40=-0.001 FATIGUE_COEF\|RegularFactor41=0.001 FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor40=0.0001 ; rest without recovery in battle FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor41=0.017 FATIGUE_COEF\|BadWeather4=0.001 ; bow torp FATIGUE_COEF\|RegularFactor50=0.001 FATIGUE_COEF\|RegularFactor51=0.001 FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor50=0.045 FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor51=0.045 FATIGUE_COEF\|BadWeather5=0.02 ; watch out for those swinging torps ; quarters FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor60=-0.1 ; this is the same value as in default FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor61=-0.1 ; sleep knits up the ravelled sleeve of care FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor70=-0.1 FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor71=-0.1 ; stern torp FATIGUE_COEF\|RegularFactor80=0.001 FATIGUE_COEF\|RegularFactor81=0.001 FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor80=0.045 FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor81=0.045 FATIGUE_COEF\|BadWeather8=0.02 ; gun FATIGUE_COEF\|RegularFactor90=0.001 FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor90=0.02 FATIGUE_COEF\|BadWeather9=0.02 ; aa FATIGUE_COEF\|RegularFactor100=0.001 FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor100=0.02 FATIGUE_COEF\|BadWeather10=0.02 ; damage control FATIGUE_COEF\|RegularFactor110=-0.05 FATIGUE_COEF\|RegularFactor111=-0.05 FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor110=0.02 FATIGUE_COEF\|SpecificFactor111=0.02 FATIGUE_COEF\|BadWeather11=0.001