Kaczynski >possibly< responsible for the crash

[Skybird]

Before you guys start trying to kill me again, please understand I am just the messenger of the news, not the author of it.

http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/artic...en-Lotsen.html

The important part in this report is this, I translate it afterwards:

Ein Luftfahrtexperte von der Technischen Hochschule in Breslau, Tomasz Szulc, sagte, dem Piloten habe wahrscheinlich die „nötige Durchsetzungsfähigkeit“ gefehlt. Er erinnerte an einen Zwischenfall vom Sommer 2008.
Damals hatte sich ein Pilot wegen akuter Gefahrenlage über die Order des Präsidenten, direkt nach Georgien zu fliegen, hinweggesetzt und war in einem Nachbarland gelandet. Lech Kaczynski musste mit einem Auto nach Tiflis chauffiert werden. Das Staatsoberhaupt warf dem Piloten damals Befehlsverweigerung vor.

Die Fluglotsen haben kein Recht, dem polnischen Präsidentenflugzeug die Landung zu verbieten

The article refers to original reports in both the Gazeta Wyborcza and Itar-Tass that is quoting the vice supreme commander of the Russian air force.

Translation:
An aviation expert of the technical university in Breslau, Tomasz Szulc, said the pilot probably was missing the needed assertiveness (=Durchsetzungsvermögen"). he reminds of an ncident from summer 2008.

Back then a pilot had ignored direct orders by the president to fly directly to Georgia, due to the present danger of the situation [Georgia war], he landed in a neighbouring country instead. Lech Kaczynski had to drive by car to Tiflis. The head of state back then accused the pilot of insubordination.

Flight controllers have no legal power to deny landing permission to the Polish presidential plane.

Now add these hints together.

1. Just hours earlier, an experienced Russian aviator who knew the target airport and was familiar wirth the area, refused all by himself to land at the airport, instead he flew back to Moscow and landed there in safety.

2. In 2008, Kaczynski demanded to be directly flown into a war zone so dangerous that the pilot simply refused to accept that risk and refused to obey the president's direct orders, and ignored them, landing in a safe place instead.

3. Kazcynski had nothing better to do than to accuse him of insubordination instead of leaving the decision to the expert'S experience.

4. The plane yesterday tried to land four times in thick fog, ignoring the very urgent advise from tower not to land,and to evade to a safe place. This although the plane is more than twenty years old and ILS was not available.

Adding one and one and one and one gets me to a result of four. Pilot error? Maybe in that he should have refused to obey . To me it sounds like soembody again tried to get with this head through the wall - and this time the wall was stronger than his head.

The relatives of the other victims onboard might want to ask some angry questions.

Hold on, is Kaczynski some sort of Muslim or is he perhaps part of a secret global EU conspiracy over fictional demographics?
There must be some really serious ulterior motive for this to be persued after being asked in the plane crash topic to drop it till after the corpses were at least slightly cold.

[Storm87]

I thought about this option. We also talking about it in here, and about many other possibilities. But this is just guessing. It may be as you sayng, but also might be not. We don't know. And it's far too early for such discussions. The air is realy heavy in Poland today... So I belive it's not the best time for such speculations.

[Oberon]

Is there a strike on Oberon?
I thought them Green Godess machines were retired by now.

[Cohaagen]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Is there a strike on Oberon?
I thought them Green Godess machines were retired by now.

They are - my old boy bought one*, to go with his AEC Mammoth Major and Dennis.

They only wheel them out these days to deal with heavy paranoiacs. Auxilliary kit is an eight-foot cotton sock to stuff into the mouth, and fist-sized plugs of cottons for the ears so they can't listen to shortwave radio.

Did I ever tell you that OJ Simpson faked the Mars Landing?







*he did

They are - my old boy bought one*, to go with his AEC Mammoth Major and Dennis.

I used to see a few of them as conversions over there, a couple of nice ones used to do the Run for the Sun before that got too commercial.

Did I ever tell you that OJ Simpson faked the Mars Landing?

Did he have a secret army of Nazi dentists to help him with the filming?

[Oberon]

Just thought I'd get the old girl out before the fire started

Are the Prodigy playing?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Are the Prodigy playing?

Either them or the Crazy World of Arthur Brown!

[Schroeder]

I guess the voice recorder will tell us soon enough. Before that it is all speculation.

@Skybird

You made one of your favourite mistakes in English again by translating the German eventuell with eventually. Eventually means something like "finally" while eventuell means "maybe, perhaps".

[XabbaRus]

Now there was a crazy guy...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

You made one of your favourite mistakes in English again by translating the German eventuell with eventually. Eventually means something like "finally" while eventuell means "maybe, perhaps".

I become so sorry, promised!

Serious, I never knew that. Thanks. Maybe a mod can replace the misleading word in the headline with "possibly". the title sounds really bad and misleading, like an attack.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The relatives of the other victims onboard might want to ask some angry questions.

I doubt they would. I bet they are more tactful than you.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

There must be some really serious ulterior motive for this to be persued after being asked in the plane crash topic to drop it till after the corpses were at least slightly cold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessi...lsive_disorder

and my comment on him in the previous thread, btw thx for infractions Xabba.

Originally Posted by Skybird

Maybe a mod can replace the misleading word in the headline with "possibly". the title sounds really bad and misleading, like an attack.

Oh maybe not. Let the proofs of your ignorance remain unchanged.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by kranz

I doubt they would. I bet they are more tactful than you.

Yeah, cover it up.

Havin dealt with victims professionally in my past, I must tell you that for victims and their relatives it is not so much a question of tact, but a question on uncertainty which to end by getting answers is something they find relief over. You - only seem to be about a personal cult, at the cost of ignoring such possibilities of relief for the relatives. And that is very selfish of you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessi...lsive_disorder

Talking about that tact you just mentioned.

and my comment on him in the previous thread,

I forgot whether it was you or somebody else calling me names and calling me a swine there.

Oh maybe not. Let the proofs of your ignorance remain unchanged.

Yeah, keep on pumping oil into the fire, by leaving that headline in an unintended, potentially flamatory state that I did not wish to express that way, but did by lacking knowledge only. That'S what you really are after, right? A rumble?

Unfortunatley, this is not the first opportunity I recall where you mistake name calling with argument and personal attacks with posting.



A principal thing, adressing the mods:

do not warn me over anything here. In the other thread, as well as here, I was absolutely modest in stating what I said, and I payed respect to the tragic dimension and the human loss three times. But Kranz thinks he has to defend a leader status of Kaczynski - the only figure in this that I do criticise and that many people here have criticed in the past years - that seems to be completely ignorrant of the shadow sides of the man. He raised the temperature needlessly that way, encouraging others in the other thread to follow that example. I got called a swine, an ignorrant, a Nazi, and now a mentally defective, with no reaction by any mod. The original comment by me was between me and Schroeder - and it was harmless, since we both wished, expressed and agreed in that hopefully the political ties between Germany and Poland now would improve again. And over that Kranz blew up. But it is a historic fact that there is a record of the Polish right, which is not a microscopic faction only, but has one third and more of the population as sympathisers, to raise Polish revanchism against Germany and to link the current Germany and it'S government with the Third Reich and the person of Adolf Hitler. This is also an aspect of Kaczynski.

This was mentioned by me in a moderate, short comment, and I refuse to accept any criticism over that. What has been sent back in hatefilled reaction by two or three figures immediately starting to fire verbal offences, is not acceptable, no matter the mourning in Poland, and I wonder why it is accepted on this board when the forum rules speak out against it so very clearly. I got three mails yesterday from people telling me all the same: that they tend to agree with what I said, that they find it bad that the namecalling that came back in reply was accepted without warning by the mod, and this morning I see that both my comment and the vitriol in reply was deleted, as if the one was of the same severity than the other. Against this relativisation I file my protest. Cautioning the personal insults, and if desired: separating the thread would have been the right thing to do.

If I would say that America is a nation of evil, that Americans (in general) are racist KKK-members and there is a trend in America for reestablishing slavery, all the wolve pack immediately would go after me and call death! and torture!. But when germany gets constantly pointed at as being a Nazi country, and the people and our leaders being racists and reincarnations of Hitler - then we Germans time and again are expected to just swallow that, to behave as if nothing has happened, and to just show a kind smile. OTH gets away with it. Tribesman gets away with it when calling me perosnally like that. Omne or two guys yesterday got away with it. In the past years where this happened so often, I recall only one or two situations where a Neal stepped in. After all it is just the stupid Germans getting attacked, and the Germans are good for three things only: to be called Nazis, to shut up, and to pay. Not to mention Hollywood...

The news I report in this thread, bases on information from Polish and Russian military sources, as i already said. Take that into account before anyone again dares to throw dirt at me for "not respecting the dead". I briefly checked healdines in the few english russian and Poish newspapers I have lionked, and all of them are already far ahead in speculating and asking questions about the causes. I payed tribute to the dead THREE TIMES in the other thread, in three different posts, but I refuse to pay any special tribute to Kaczynski for being a president, and I am not becoming more sentimental over this tragedy than I would become about a bus accident in a suburb of Casablanca. Let's face it, if it would have been a figure like Hugo Chavez gotten killed in an accident, nobody here would think about piety and relatives, but the air would bristle with jokes and ironic comments, and references to what a jester that guys was. I never claimed to be a holy saint being in emphatic contact with all the rest of mankind. Several thousand people died yesterday worldwide, and all of them are as close or as distant to me than those sitting in that plane. So do not expect me to cry crocodile tears. I have cried, on several occaisons - over the fate of people with whom I had any sort of relation, personally or professionally, or that I loved and knew.



Now, post in this thread if you have something constructive to say on its topic, or stay away. Personal insults are not wanted here, and I will not just swallow them again like yesterday. when the French airbus crashed in the Atlantic last year, there was a thread about possible causes, too, including pilot or maintenance errors. Nobody took offence from that. There is no reason to take offence now, just because this time it is a Polish plane.