Confusion over Campaign [Merged]

[Reece]

IIRC, quite a while back a survey was presented by Neal asking what the most important part in SH5 is, a list was given and the one I voted on was "Dynamic Campaign"!
Now SH3 was held back from release so that we could have a Dynamic Campaign and all this time I assumed that this was, in fact, so, now we are being told that it wasn't, it was a Random Campaign!! so when I filled in the Survey I was under the impression that Dynamic = Random, so too I think many others here in Subsim, I feel this is why the uproar, the new SH5 Dynamic Campaign is basically scripted with some random events, but what I expected was a Random Campaign!
I wonder how many others had this same idea?

[Kapitanleutnant]

Everybody considered SH3 to be dynamic.
Ubi just moved the goalposts to fit in with their plans.

[Carotio]

Well, I like the idea of RANDOM elements in the campaign too, like it's possible to mod in both SH3+4 with the mission editor, and if there's a mission editor in the SH5 disc too this time, then it's not my major concern. But still, agreeing to the meaning of a term is essential to which way a discussion is lead. So yeah, the campaign should be random, so it's not the same every time you play.

[Mikhayl]

SH3 and SH4 campaign: random with entirely fixed elements, scripted player objectives distributed randomly.

SH5 campaign: random with dynamic elements, player objectives unknown so far but I guess it will follow the curve set between SH3 & 4, ie more detailed and varied.

I don't get the fuss over this, it's like people love to freak out

[Sailor Steve]

After all this you still can't figure it out? What we meant by 'dynamic' was actually random. SH4 was exactly the same, but had some scripted events, such as pilot rescue, commando and spy insertion, supply delivery etc. This was actually exactly what SH1 had, but with improvements and additions.

One of the things some people asked for was true dynamics, i.e. your actions could elicit some reaction from the enemy, maybe even change the outcome of the war. They don't seem to have gone that far, but it looks like there will be AI resposes to your actions, including throwing more forces into areas where you've left your mark.

I feel this is why the uproar, the new SH5 Dynamic Campaign is basically scripted with some random events

No, what they have said repeatedly is that it's random with some scripted events (like SH4) and some dynamic reactions thrown in. "Dynamic" means that the campaign itself is capable of reacting, changing and growing.

Whether they have actually achieved that goal remains to be seen, but you keep harping on this same theme over and over and over again, and you don't seem to be listening to what's been said. Every time they give a new explanation you wait a day and bring it up all over again.

Sorry to rude, but this time you really got to me.

ps. Back when the 'dynamic' discussion was going on for SH3 I stopped thinking in those terms after someone made the distinction (even back then) between 'random' and 'dynamic'. After that I started calling AOD, SH1 and SH3's way of doing things "Career Mode".

[JU_88]

I think the hysteria over the SHV campaign is down to some people misunderstanding and then jumping to conclusions.

They tend to selectivly quote something Dan or an artical says
and then follow up with the phrase...
"It sounds to me like they are saying..." or "I think this means..."

The Devs have said its an improved dynamic campaign & explained how it works about ten thousand times already.

[Laffertytig]

sailer steve is spot on here. a dynamic campaign is a campaign where your actions can influence how it plays out, like falcon 4.0 for example.

none of the campaigns in the silent hunter series have been truly dynamic, they're random campaigns in every sense of the word.

i dont get the mass hysteria either i assume there a lots of people here who remember the disaster that SH2 was with its terrible scripted campaign mode. this new campaign mode sounds streets ahead of that for sure.
ive got an open mind bout this SH5 campaign, it does sound interesting but time will tell i guess.

[Reece]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

After all this you still can't figure it out? What we meant by 'dynamic' was actually random. SH4 was exactly the same, but had some scripted events, such as pilot rescue, commando and spy insertion, supply delivery etc. This was actually exactly what SH1 had, but with improvements and additions.

One of the things some people asked for was true dynamics, i.e. your actions could elicit some reaction from the enemy, maybe even change the outcome of the war. They don't seem to have gone that far, but it looks like there will be AI resposes to your actions, including throwing more forces into areas where you've left your mark.


No, what they have said repeatedly is that it's random with some scripted events (like SH4) and some dynamic reactions thrown in. "Dynamic" means that the campaign itself is capable of reacting, changing and growing.

Whether they have actually achieved that goal remains to be seen, but you keep harping on this same theme over and over and over again, and you don't seem to be listening to what's been said. Every time they give a new explanation you wait a day and bring it up all over again.

Sorry to rude, but this time you really got to me.

ps. Back when the 'dynamic' discussion was going on for SH3 I stopped thinking in those terms after someone made the distinction (even back then) between 'random' and 'dynamic'. After that I started calling AOD, SH1 and SH3's way of doing things "Career Mode".

If it is random with some scripted events that would be OK but that is not what I am reading, and many others I bet, what I see is:

1) Starting a new campaign and have to complete a competency course before being given command of your boat, and each time you start a new campaign you will have to go through this again!!
2) We will start from a predetermined point and given orders to follow, once done will either return to port or given new orders, these orders are predefined to historic events.
3) As historic events progress the starting point will change to reflect this.
4) Depending on the outcome of events (depending on the orders given) the next starting point may change to a random, limited, number of starting points.

Once the campaign has been completed starting a new campaign will be basically the same thing, this will happen over and over, the only random change will be as in 4) above.
I hope I am wrong, and although it may not be exactly as I describe I fear it will be similar!

JU_88 Said:
The Devs have said its an improved dynamic campaign & explained how it works about ten thousand times already.

Please explain it to me then, I haven't seen this!! A discussion here would clear this up.

[Mikhayl]

1) I seriously doubt that the training debut will have to be done more than once. Even if, what's so wrong with it? They said it's basically a training patrol. Supermods in SH3 moved the starting date before September 1939 to do precisely that!

2) this is the same as SH3 and 4, depending on your flotilla you start from the same harbour and you're given a variety of orders. And supermods for SH3 all thrives to do just that, see how many pages in the GWX manual about scripted/historical events, and all the radio messages in LSH and WAC to direct the player "where it's at", because participating in big events is more fun than sinking random ships in random convoys.
How the patrol actually pans out remains entirely variable, you may or may not encounter ships en route, on patrol zone, be attacked by aircraft, hunter killer groups, you name it.

3 & 4) same as SH3 & 4 and real life. Starting points = harbours. Depending on your flotilla you start in Kiel or Willelmshaven, move to the Atlantic bases, back to Germany or Bergen or any available harbours at a given date, including a possible transfer to the Med. What's the big deal?

Have some faith man

[Reece]

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

1) I seriously doubt that the training debut will have to be done more than once. Even if, what's so wrong with it? They said it's basically a training patrol. Supermods in SH3 moved the starting date before September 1939 to do precisely that!

2) this is the same as SH3 and 4, depending on your flotilla you start from the same harbour and you're given a variety of orders. And supermods for SH3 all thrives to do just that, see how many pages in the GWX manual about scripted/historical events, and all the radio messages in LSH and WAC to direct the player "where it's at", because participating in big events is more fun than sinking random ships in random convoys.
How the patrol actually pans out remains entirely variable, you may or may not encounter ships en route, on patrol zone, be attacked by aircraft, hunter killer groups, you name it.

3 & 4) same as SH3 & 4 and real life. Starting points = harbours. Depending on your flotilla you start in Kiel or Willelmshaven, move to the Atlantic bases, back to Germany or Bergen or any available harbours at a given date, including a possible transfer to the Med. What's the big deal?

Have some faith man

Sorry to put a dent in that but here is a quote from Dan:

Dan quoted TarJak: To get access to ANY historic port flotilla that you choose, you have to mod it. You will have several starting points that we have chosen

Also:

Dan said:
Yes, you have a crew. Yes, there's a storyline to it

[Mikhayl]

Originally Posted by Reece

Sorry to put a dent in that but here is a quote from Dan:

This is the SAME as SH3
You will have several available harbours, seeing the trailers I imagine at least Kiel and/or Willy, Bergen, La Spezia and at least Brest, St Nazaire and maybe Lorient and Bordeaux like in stock SH3, and I imagine at least 2 different flotillas.
That's plenty enough to get going, but then modders can add more harbours and flotillas like they did for SH3 & 4.

As I read it, the storyline applies to the crew. I bet Dan's right hand (eh) that if you start 2 careers from the same harbour at the same date with the same flotillas, you won't have two identical patrols. "Dynamic" and even "scripted" don't mean "linear". The devs repeatedly said that they wouldn't want that.

[TarJak]

OK so is your concern over having only one path to take?

Sounds like this is not the case from Dan's answer you've quoted. There will be more than one starting point. Only thing I'd want cleared up in addition to that would be does that mean dates as well as ports/flotilla's? I assume it would have to otherwise you'd be stuck with Willy Keil and Flensburg as the only starting ports without modding.

From the point where the campaign starts, the path the action takes will diverge depending on your actions based on Dan's other responses in terms of the campaign being more dynamic.

This sounds like a good thing not a bad thing to me.

If you were to go through the "training" patrol each time would that be such a pain? Well that depends on what's in it and whether it is able to be skipped over easily enough. An as Mikhayl pointed out then a mod will end up coming along to let you avoid it.

There are planty of players who actually do a work up patrol when they first start a career rather than going out all guns blazing 1st patrol.

[Reece]

Originally Posted by TarJak

OK so is your concern over having only one path to take?

Sounds like this is not the case from Dan's answer you've quoted. There will be more than one starting point. Only thing I'd want cleared up in addition to that would be does that mean dates as well as ports/flotilla's? I assume it would have to otherwise you'd be stuck with Willy Keil and Flensburg as the only starting ports without modding.

From the point where the campaign starts, the path the action takes will diverge depending on your actions based on Dan's other responses in terms of the campaign being more dynamic.

This sounds like a good thing not a bad thing to me.

If you were to go through the "training" patrol each time would that be such a pain? Well that depends on what's in it and whether it is able to be skipped over easily enough. An as Mikhayl pointed out then a mod will end up coming along to let you avoid it.

There are planty of players who actually do a work up patrol when they first start a career rather than going out all guns blazing 1st patrol.

Sounds good, I misunderstood the starting points to be total number of points available.
The other area that has me worried is the set of historic events, that appear to be scripted and after a few campaigns you would know exactly what to expect (repetitive), maybe these can be modded out and added in the rnd layer (if there is still one)?
Lets face it you don't want 100% historically correct or we would know exactly what will happen when and where!

[TarJak]

Yeah but I don't see these as gamekillers for me. It is no different in SH3 with GWX now. I can go to the beaches off Normandy late on 5th June 1944 and sure enough there will be a nice fat juicy set of targets coming my way early next morning! Protected by large swarms of highly sensitive escorts after my blood.

My bigger concern is that this period of the war is not there and would need to be modded or an add-on released to allow the above scenario to be played out in SH5.

[Soundman]

Would just like to point out, a "dynamic" campaign with a subsim such as this is a little harder and maybe not so realistic because of the lag time.

Someone mentioned "Falcon 4.0" here as an example, and it's a good comparison. When you fly an air mission in a modern jet fighter, your mission averages a couple of hours and things change pretty quickly. In a WWII subsim, you could sink a couple of carriers (such as Midway), but you might not get back to port until a month later. Of course, when you radio back to headquarters of the outcome, you effected the strategy of battle/mission planning by doing so, but by the time you arrive back in port a month later (in many cases), all the mission strategy changes were given to other boats leaving port before you.