Should SH5 more or less fully simulate the acoustic environment

difool2 · 12-02-09, 11:32 PM

...to a detail approaching that of Dangerous Waters? We should have thermals, I think that's a given, but should it simulate the various sound speed profiles (most notably convergence zones, which in the middle of the Atlantic would allow for brief detection of enemies at long ranges)? Just because nobody back then was aware of such things doesn't mean they didn't exist and didn't affect how various units could detect, or not detect, each other. Thoughts?

Sag75 · 12-03-09, 01:22 AM

Nice thoughts, but the issue is you can't measure them! you don't have BT buoys on your U-boot and, as far I know at this moment I'm writing, germans were not interested in monitoring thermals probably because they were thinking not so much affecting the play..

So.. you are in your WW2 environment where almost of the variables are unknown due to the early technology.. and also the sound propagation knowledge was minor at that time. In other terms, why Devs should add a large mathematical system for sound propagation if it can't be experienced properly by the player due to lack of computers/indicators/proper sensors?

JScones · 12-03-09, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by difool2

We should have thermals, I think that's a given, but should it simulate the various sound speed profiles (most notably convergence zones, which in the middle of the Atlantic would allow for brief detection of enemies at long ranges)? Just because nobody back then was aware of such things doesn't mean they didn't exist and didn't affect how various units could detect, or not detect, each other. Thoughts?

I agree. The idea that it wasn't measured by the Germans therefore doesn't exist is ludicrous. The effects are still real, even if not understood. I'm sure there were many "wtf just happened then?" type moments that couldn't be explained by the crew, yet were simply a result of thermals or other effects. Indeed, wouldn't such "known unknowns" add a level of uncertainty for the U-boat Kaleun? At least then the Med wouldn't "act" the same as the Atlantic wouldn't "act" the same as the Pacific.

Besides, Topp (or one U-boat commander) confirmed in an interview a while ago that the Germans did measure salinity and temperature. They may not have completely understood the results, but they still knew it had some effect...

Leif... · 12-05-09, 10:00 AM

Let us at least have sound delayed explosions, if I see an explosion far away I don't want to hear the sound at the same time.

mookiemookie · 12-05-09, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leif...

Let us at least have sound delayed explosions, if I see an explosion far away I don't want to hear the sound at the same time.

SH4 included this. They probably will keep it as an option in 5.

GoldenRivet · 12-06-09, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leif...

Let us at least have sound delayed explosions, if I see an explosion far away I don't want to hear the sound at the same time.

Not only that... but the thunderous explosion you might hear up close should only be a loud "thump" from a long distance away

Letum · 12-06-09, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

Not only that... but the thunderous explosion you might hear up close should only be a loud "thump" from a long distance away

Not only that, you should hear the sound hit your boat through the water
a few moments before the quieter sound arrives by air.

Depth charges and torpedoes should echo in shallow water as well.

Sailor Steve · 12-07-09, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

Not only that, you should hear the sound hit your boat through the water
a few moments before the quieter sound arrives by air.

If you're on the bridge you won't hear the underwater sound. If you're inside the boat you won't hear the airborne sound.

Letum · 12-05-09, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JScones

[...]the Germans did measure salinity and temperature. They may not have completely understood the results, but they still knew it had some effect...

I would imagine they measured it because of it's significant effect on
dive times and buoyancy, rather than acoustic properties.

TarJak · 12-05-09, 06:58 PM

Agree, the effect exists in RL therefore should be modelled in game regardless of the Kaleun's knowledge or understanding of the effect.

Takeda Shingen · 12-06-09, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JScones

I agree. The idea that it wasn't measured by the Germans therefore doesn't exist is ludicrous. The effects are still real, even if not understood. I'm sure there were many "wtf just happened then?" type moments that couldn't be explained by the crew, yet were simply a result of thermals or other effects. Indeed, wouldn't such "known unknowns" add a level of uncertainty for the U-boat Kaleun? At least then the Med wouldn't "act" the same as the Atlantic wouldn't "act" the same as the Pacific.

Besides, Topp (or one U-boat commander) confirmed in an interview a while ago that the Germans did measure salinity and temperature. They may not have completely understood the results, but they still knew it had some effect...

x2. That is was not understood did not preclude its effects. Sea state, thermocline layer and strength and salinity should all vary my sonar performance.

karamazovnew · 12-06-09, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

x2. That is was not understood did not preclude its effects. Sea state, thermocline layer and strength and salinity should all vary my sonar performance.

Those have already been included in SH3 and especially SH4. But the devs forgot to make it variable and we got stuck with water so bad that the poor Sonar Guy can't hear a thing

Takeda Shingen · 12-19-09, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karamazovnew

Those have already been included in SH3 and especially SH4. But the devs forgot to make it variable and we got stuck with water so bad that the poor Sonar Guy can't hear a thing

No. SHIV had a standard thermocline signal decay. In truth, the strength of the thermocline varies from day to day and season to season based on a number of factors. In effect, going deep should, at times, render me invisible and, at other times, do absolutey nothing to mask my signature.

sabretwo · 12-21-09, 08:20 AM

Thermal layers, detectable active sonar pings, and depth charge noise disruption are a definate must!

karamazovnew · 12-21-09, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

No. SHIV had a standard thermocline signal decay. In truth, the strength of the thermocline varies from day to day and season to season based on a number of factors. In effect, going deep should, at times, render me invisible and, at other times, do absolutey nothing to mask my signature.

I knew that. I was talking about MY Sonar Guy who can't hear a thing.

12-02-09, 11:32 PM	#1
difool2 Commander Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 459 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	Should SH5 more or less fully simulate the acoustic environment ...to a detail approaching that of Dangerous Waters? We should have thermals, I think that's a given, but should it simulate the various sound speed profiles (most notably convergence zones, which in the middle of the Atlantic would allow for brief detection of enemies at long ranges)? Just because nobody back then was aware of such things doesn't mean they didn't exist and didn't affect how various units could detect, or not detect, each other. Thoughts?

12-03-09, 01:22 AM	#2
Sag75 XO Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 424 Downloads: 45 Uploads: 0	Nice thoughts, but the issue is you can't measure them! you don't have BT buoys on your U-boot and, as far I know at this moment I'm writing, germans were not interested in monitoring thermals probably because they were thinking not so much affecting the play.. So.. you are in your WW2 environment where almost of the variables are unknown due to the early technology.. and also the sound propagation knowledge was minor at that time. In other terms, why Devs should add a large mathematical system for sound propagation if it can't be experienced properly by the player due to lack of computers/indicators/proper sensors? __________________ Betasom - XI Gruppo Sommergibili Atlantici http://www.betasom.it/forum/index.php

12-05-09, 10:00 AM	#4
Leif... Watch Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Sweden Posts: 19 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Let us at least have sound delayed explosions, if I see an explosion far away I don't want to hear the sound at the same time. Last edited by Leif...; 12-05-09 at 10:12 AM.

12-05-09, 06:58 PM	#10
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	Agree, the effect exists in RL therefore should be modelled in game regardless of the Kaleun's knowledge or understanding of the effect.

12-21-09, 08:20 AM	#14
sabretwo Frogman Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 295 Downloads: 69 Uploads: 0	Thermal layers, detectable active sonar pings, and depth charge noise disruption are a definate must!