Evasion Suggestions

Vandrith · 04-21-09, 08:01 PM

I always have trouble evading destroyers in SHIV so most of my hunting is left to lone merches or unguarded harbors.

So does anyone have suggestions (or a guide) for evading convoy escorts. Better yet, that and a convoy attack guide.

Input is welcome!

EDIT: For those of you who are wondering I an using TMO Patch 163 along with that Crew Commpartment Mod (Though I doubt that matters at all).

Frame57 · 04-21-09, 09:17 PM

On one hand evading escorts is the right thing to do. Sinking Merchants and surviving another day to do the same is what brought Japan to its knees.

Here is a tip for Covoys. First set up an Intercept course and always ASSUME there will be escorts. Try to get a visual by using the higher powered TBT on the surface if that is not feasable use your scope at Periscope depth. If you cannot get a visual then you rely on Sonar and will have to take whatever the window of opportunity presents.

Once you are in a decent position. Stay below the thermal at all stop with silent running on. When the sonar reports the merchant is closing at medium range I go to periscope depth, then get a solution and fire a spread of three to four fish depending on the target. I do not wait around to watch. I then go below the thermal and proceed at a 1/3 bell to exit the escorts that will be looking for you. I usually have a very good success rate using this method. If I feel I can get another target I will attempt this. By then usually the escorts have warned the Convoy. I will then hit a flank bell and launch countermeasures (Decoys) above the thermal. Once I am under the thermal I go back to slow speed so I am not heard. Takes practice so give yourself time to develope it and you will kick some butt out there.

Peto · 04-22-09, 01:14 AM

I'd like a little more info before I go further with this. Mainly, what mods are you using? (RFB? TMO? Stock?) It can make a big difference in evasion tactics.

When I was testing AI sonars for RFB I had the "opportunity" to spend many hours evading escorts. (Longest evasion was 8+ hours). The experience sure has come in handy though when I'm in a campaign

!

#1 rule for evasion is Patience!!! It can take a while...

#2 is aspect--show them a narrow profile (preferable your stern).

#3 is depth. The deeper you are the less accurate their DC drops are. They have a blind zone on the run in.

#4 is practice. Seriusly. You've identified this as a problem for you. Create a scenario with you and 2 escorts in clear weather (0ms wind). Make the escorts either veterans or elites. If you smoke, get a fresh pack. If you drink, get a case of beer. If you don't drink, you might start, so get at least a 6-pack anyway

. And practice. there is no 100% method for evasion, but you'll learn what works and what doesn't. Take it from me--there's really no feeling like finally getting away from 2 pesky elite DD's after an 8 hour tango.

Schroeder · 04-22-09, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frame57

Once you are in a decent position. Stay below the thermal at all stop with silent running on.

Well, this might work in the game but in RL you can't control the depth of the submarine without some speed (or the use of the pumps which make more noise than slow engine speed from what I heard). So if you want to play realistically you should maintain at least some slow speed all of the time.

Wicked Popsicle · 04-22-09, 05:27 AM

I am using tmo. If your getting pinged be sure to be below the thermal layer. I wait until the destroyer gets above me and the pinging stops. I hit it to flank speed dive some more and hard rudder left or right. and when the ship passes you bring it down to a stop and let yoursef glide. I have sucessful got away using this method more than once.

ichso · 04-22-09, 05:33 AM

Hm. But if you go up to flank speed as soon as their pining stops, that means that they can hear you.
Passive sonar will be deaf for a short while after the DCs exploded, right. But if you give away your position before that.

That's at least an issue under the circumstance that they don't have your (more or less) accurate position already by active sonar. And if there is only one DD chasing you, your tactic might also work. But with more than one being after you, one can still listing while another one is pinging or making a run.

As I read some time ago, a single destroyer wasn't able to use active and passive sonar at the same time. Is this correct ? And if, does it apply to the game mechanics ?

Vandrith · 04-22-09, 07:45 AM

Well, for those of you who are wondering I an using TMO Patch 163 along with that Crew Commpartment Mod (Though I doubt that matters at all).

I'll change my first post to give this info too.

Frame57 · 04-22-09, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Well, this might work in the game but in RL you can't control the depth of the submarine without some speed (or the use of the pumps which make more noise than slow engine speed from what I heard). So if you want to play realistically you should maintain at least some slow speed all of the time.

You are right on! It was available to acheive neutral bouyancy but it took a skilled DO. If they did it correct they could maintain depth at all stop.

vanjast · 04-22-09, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Well, this might work in the game but in RL you can't control the depth of the submarine without some speed (or the use of the pumps which make more noise than slow engine speed from what I heard). So if you want to play realistically you should maintain at least some slow speed all of the time.

This was so with SH3's RUB, but not with RFB... makes you think... why did they change the 'plan'.. didn't they like Uboats

Actually it's all about bouyancy, which is controllable to a certain degree - with RUB I think they got it right as I had to cruise about 1 knot minimum to stay level. Now with RFB, I can just park off

Folducker · 04-22-09, 03:37 PM

I guess so far, I have been pretty lucky. The half dozen or so attacks I have made on convoys haven't resulted in much in the way of ASW counterattacks. By going below the layer and silent right away, I haven't been detected. The Japanese destroyers have a good time beating up the ocean in spots where I'm not. I think this will probably change later on, now I am in January '43. I have to laugh when I go to the external view and see a group of destroyers gathered in a circle with their spot lights on and every now and then one of them makes a run through the center of the circle and drops. Don't know what they are trying to kill as long as it's not me!

Armistead · 04-22-09, 03:54 PM

I'm sure you're aware of TMO1.7 is up and running. Might want to load it up after this career.

In TMO, you must evade, not toy around at slow speeds, constantly keeping a narrow profile. You want to get out of the circle of death ASAP.
They ping, take off. If they go over you, flank. I go anywhere from 1 knot to flank when evading. Only time I'm silent is when they stop.

One easy tip that really works if you have no damage, go deeper than default. I won't tell what crush depths I've found, but you can usually go another 100 ft without a problem.

Remember weather and sea conditions play a huge role, moreso in TMO. You would be surprised what you can get by with in rough seas and how little you can get by when the sea is mirror calm.

When attacking one of the most important things I've found is quick periscope takes. Leave that scope up long and they will be alerted.
I get the right tracking, speed, aob, ect., then go to about 100 feet for shooting. I don't like showing my scope within 1000 yards.

Before the attack...silent and not give yourself away. After, I'm usually out of the circle of death before they start searching. Just remember if one contacts you, he calls his friends.

Rockin Robbins · 04-22-09, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanjast

This was so with SH3's RUB, but not with RFB... makes you think... why did they change the 'plan'.. didn't they like Uboats

Actually it's all about bouyancy, which is controllable to a certain degree - with RUB I think they got it right as I had to cruise about 1 knot minimum to stay level. Now with RFB, I can just park off

Actually, RUB got it wrong too. I forget how it works. NYGM made the sub slightly buoyant and RUB slightly negative, or the other way around. Actually the situation is MUCH more complicated. Not only is there an unpredictable fluctuation in buoyancy, meaning that you can randomly be slightly positive OR negative, buoyancy can be different at the bow than the stern, setting your trim off. Things can get quickly out of hand in a hovering submarine and none of the mods can get it right without random effects, which we don't have and can't make. Better to leave things alone and just play realistically than have some hokey inaccurate effect. You should always keep at least half a knot on for stability. That's close enough to power off that it doesn't matter and you are being realistic.

Now I'll toss the monkey wrench into the works. It WAS possible in one circumstance to hover a sub power off for hours on end. This was done several times successfully during the war and saved a couple of subs. Want to guess how it was done? It did not involve sitting on the bottom.

old_tex · 04-22-09, 09:30 PM

[quote=Now I'll toss the monkey wrench into the works. It WAS possible in one circumstance to hover a sub power off for hours on end. This was done several times successfully during the war and saved a couple of subs. Want to guess how it was done? It did not involve sitting on the bottom.[/quote]

My guess would be getting people forward or aft as the bubble moved.

Old_tex

Folducker · 04-22-09, 01:30 PM

The last thing I need to do is give someone advice playing this game as I haven’t been playing very long, but this works for me.
1) Approach the convoy from the direct front. Plot the course, draw a line so you know which way they are headed. Usually you will have up to 4 escorts. One in direct front, one each off to the sides and one in the rear. It’s the one in the rear who usually gives the most trouble. So far, I have found convoys tend to be ships traveling abreast of each other, maybe two or three rows deep.
2) At about 8 to 10 miles, dive to periscope depth. You are headed directly for the lead escort. Go deep until you get the “passing thermal layer” message, or just go to 300 feet. Silent running, dead slow.
3) You will now have a number of lines on the map indicating sound bearings. The black lines are merchant ships, the blue ones are escorts. You want to watch the escort lines.
4) At some time, the blue lines will swivel from in front of you to pointing behind you. This means you are past the lead escort but still in front of the lead ship. Magnify the map and pick a spot between the ships. When you are still about 1000 yards or so ahead, go to periscope depth, slow speed. This takes some practice, if you surface too soon, the escorts will pick you up and the convoy will scatter, too late and you get to watch everyone parade by while you are surfacing. When you are surfacing, open all outer doors, warm up the TDC and set the scope at the approximate position where you except the first ship you want to shoot at to appear. Start shooting. I like to reach periscope depth after turning 90 degrees to the convoy course as very slow speed. (Try not to get run over, ruins your day) I try to shoot the ship furthest away first, usually with the bow tubes, and then switch to the stern tubes. If you are successful, go back to 300 feet and wait for the escorts. The key here is to stay at silent running and get the hell out of Dodge. On a good day, I sunk three freighters and one escort. (The escort just happened to stumble in front of a miss). Good Luck.

Stealhead · 04-22-09, 02:16 PM

I agree with all the guys who use the thermal layer very helpful get under that. Also I agree with the running very slow and going ahead flank when you hear the freight trian comming even if there is another escort is near by he is not going to be able to hear you do to all the noise that the attacker will be making with his high speed run. Every time I ever tried only running at flank when I heard the cans drop they often hit me. You need that flank speed to get away from the cans if you do it too late your dead. I run at flank until I hear the first can go off then I cut to all stop wait for all the bangs then based on the attacker bearing I will order a turn away from him to try keep my subs stearn towards them then I will go less than 1 knot when I then drive the sub in a fasion to try and keep em on the stearn. Also make sure that when you go to falnk speed that your rudder is null any degree of turn will slow your speed when you need it most to avoid cans. I tend not to go too deep either unless they really seem to getting close I like to get below 300(Gato or later) but not too deep I want to have something to hide in latter if you go all the way to 400 right away then your screwed if they ping you as you have now set a mark for them that you will be at least that deep. At the same time diffrent people have diffrent systems what works for one may not work for another. Playing TMO 1.7 with latest RSRD. Also learn to be able to tell when you hear cans hit the water when they are a danger and when they are not the last thing you want to do is hit full speed when you hear cans dropping when they dont have a fix on you and they are off as once you hit flank speed they will figure out where you are.Listen for that train a comin that is the sure sign that your in danger of a run.Listen to your soundman if you know the escorts arent very close and the can splashes arent loud it is a sure sign they are pining something else not your sub or at least not where your sub really is.

04-22-09, 05:33 AM	#6
ichso Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Germany's oldest city alive Posts: 1,066 Downloads: 57 Uploads: 0	Hm. But if you go up to flank speed as soon as their pining stops, that means that they can hear you. Passive sonar will be deaf for a short while after the DCs exploded, right. But if you give away your position before that. That's at least an issue under the circumstance that they don't have your (more or less) accurate position already by active sonar. And if there is only one DD chasing you, your tactic might also work. But with more than one being after you, one can still listing while another one is pinging or making a run. As I read some time ago, a single destroyer wasn't able to use active and passive sonar at the same time. Is this correct ? And if, does it apply to the game mechanics ? __________________ My Subskins: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=164169

04-22-09, 07:45 AM	#7
Vandrith A-ganger Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Apple Valley, MN Posts: 80 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	Well, for those of you who are wondering I an using TMO Patch 163 along with that Crew Commpartment Mod (Though I doubt that matters at all). I'll change my first post to give this info too. __________________ Ultima Ratio Regum (The Final Argument of the Kings) Sig by Gunfighter

04-21-09, 08:01 PM	#1
Vandrith A-ganger Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Apple Valley, MN Posts: 80 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	Evasion Suggestions I always have trouble evading destroyers in SHIV so most of my hunting is left to lone merches or unguarded harbors. So does anyone have suggestions (or a guide) for evading convoy escorts. Better yet, that and a convoy attack guide. Input is welcome! EDIT: For those of you who are wondering I an using TMO Patch 163 along with that Crew Commpartment Mod (Though I doubt that matters at all). __________________ Ultima Ratio Regum (The Final Argument of the Kings) Sig by Gunfighter Last edited by Vandrith; 04-22-09 at 07:46 AM.

04-21-09, 09:17 PM	#2
Frame57 Sea Lord Join Date: May 2008 Location: 1300 feet on the crapper Posts: 1,860 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	On one hand evading escorts is the right thing to do. Sinking Merchants and surviving another day to do the same is what brought Japan to its knees. Here is a tip for Covoys. First set up an Intercept course and always ASSUME there will be escorts. Try to get a visual by using the higher powered TBT on the surface if that is not feasable use your scope at Periscope depth. If you cannot get a visual then you rely on Sonar and will have to take whatever the window of opportunity presents. Once you are in a decent position. Stay below the thermal at all stop with silent running on. When the sonar reports the merchant is closing at medium range I go to periscope depth, then get a solution and fire a spread of three to four fish depending on the target. I do not wait around to watch. I then go below the thermal and proceed at a 1/3 bell to exit the escorts that will be looking for you. I usually have a very good success rate using this method. If I feel I can get another target I will attempt this. By then usually the escorts have warned the Convoy. I will then hit a flank bell and launch countermeasures (Decoys) above the thermal. Once I am under the thermal I go back to slow speed so I am not heard. Takes practice so give yourself time to develope it and you will kick some butt out there. __________________ "My Religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds." Albert Einstein

04-22-09, 01:14 AM	#3
Peto Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The details of my life are quite inconsequential Posts: 1,049 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	I'd like a little more info before I go further with this. Mainly, what mods are you using? (RFB? TMO? Stock?) It can make a big difference in evasion tactics. When I was testing AI sonars for RFB I had the "opportunity" to spend many hours evading escorts. (Longest evasion was 8+ hours). The experience sure has come in handy though when I'm in a campaign ! #1 rule for evasion is Patience!!! It can take a while... #2 is aspect--show them a narrow profile (preferable your stern). #3 is depth. The deeper you are the less accurate their DC drops are. They have a blind zone on the run in. #4 is practice. Seriusly. You've identified this as a problem for you. Create a scenario with you and 2 escorts in clear weather (0ms wind). Make the escorts either veterans or elites. If you smoke, get a fresh pack. If you drink, get a case of beer. If you don't drink, you might start, so get at least a 6-pack anyway . And practice. there is no 100% method for evasion, but you'll learn what works and what doesn't. Take it from me--there's really no feeling like finally getting away from 2 pesky elite DD's after an 8 hour tango. __________________ If your target has a 30 degree AOB, the range from his base course line equals the current range divided by 2.

04-22-09, 05:27 AM	#5
Wicked Popsicle A-ganger Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 73 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	I am using tmo. If your getting pinged be sure to be below the thermal layer. I wait until the destroyer gets above me and the pinging stops. I hit it to flank speed dive some more and hard rudder left or right. and when the ship passes you bring it down to a stop and let yoursef glide. I have sucessful got away using this method more than once.

04-22-09, 03:37 PM	#10
Folducker Mate Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 53 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	I guess so far, I have been pretty lucky. The half dozen or so attacks I have made on convoys haven't resulted in much in the way of ASW counterattacks. By going below the layer and silent right away, I haven't been detected. The Japanese destroyers have a good time beating up the ocean in spots where I'm not. I think this will probably change later on, now I am in January '43. I have to laugh when I go to the external view and see a group of destroyers gathered in a circle with their spot lights on and every now and then one of them makes a run through the center of the circle and drops. Don't know what they are trying to kill as long as it's not me!

04-22-09, 03:54 PM	#11
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	I'm sure you're aware of TMO1.7 is up and running. Might want to load it up after this career. In TMO, you must evade, not toy around at slow speeds, constantly keeping a narrow profile. You want to get out of the circle of death ASAP. They ping, take off. If they go over you, flank. I go anywhere from 1 knot to flank when evading. Only time I'm silent is when they stop. One easy tip that really works if you have no damage, go deeper than default. I won't tell what crush depths I've found, but you can usually go another 100 ft without a problem. Remember weather and sea conditions play a huge role, moreso in TMO. You would be surprised what you can get by with in rough seas and how little you can get by when the sea is mirror calm. When attacking one of the most important things I've found is quick periscope takes. Leave that scope up long and they will be alerted. I get the right tracking, speed, aob, ect., then go to about 100 feet for shooting. I don't like showing my scope within 1000 yards. Before the attack...silent and not give yourself away. After, I'm usually out of the circle of death before they start searching. Just remember if one contacts you, he calls his friends.

04-22-09, 09:30 PM	#13
old_tex Gunner Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: New Mexico Posts: 94 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	[quote=Now I'll toss the monkey wrench into the works. It WAS possible in one circumstance to hover a sub power off for hours on end. This was done several times successfully during the war and saved a couple of subs. Want to guess how it was done? It did not involve sitting on the bottom.[/quote] My guess would be getting people forward or aft as the bubble moved. Old_tex

04-22-09, 01:30 PM	#14
Folducker Mate Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 53 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	The last thing I need to do is give someone advice playing this game as I haven’t been playing very long, but this works for me. 1) Approach the convoy from the direct front. Plot the course, draw a line so you know which way they are headed. Usually you will have up to 4 escorts. One in direct front, one each off to the sides and one in the rear. It’s the one in the rear who usually gives the most trouble. So far, I have found convoys tend to be ships traveling abreast of each other, maybe two or three rows deep. 2) At about 8 to 10 miles, dive to periscope depth. You are headed directly for the lead escort. Go deep until you get the “passing thermal layer” message, or just go to 300 feet. Silent running, dead slow. 3) You will now have a number of lines on the map indicating sound bearings. The black lines are merchant ships, the blue ones are escorts. You want to watch the escort lines. 4) At some time, the blue lines will swivel from in front of you to pointing behind you. This means you are past the lead escort but still in front of the lead ship. Magnify the map and pick a spot between the ships. When you are still about 1000 yards or so ahead, go to periscope depth, slow speed. This takes some practice, if you surface too soon, the escorts will pick you up and the convoy will scatter, too late and you get to watch everyone parade by while you are surfacing. When you are surfacing, open all outer doors, warm up the TDC and set the scope at the approximate position where you except the first ship you want to shoot at to appear. Start shooting. I like to reach periscope depth after turning 90 degrees to the convoy course as very slow speed. (Try not to get run over, ruins your day) I try to shoot the ship furthest away first, usually with the bow tubes, and then switch to the stern tubes. If you are successful, go back to 300 feet and wait for the escorts. The key here is to stay at silent running and get the hell out of Dodge. On a good day, I sunk three freighters and one escort. (The escort just happened to stumble in front of a miss). Good Luck.

04-22-09, 02:16 PM	#15
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	I agree with all the guys who use the thermal layer very helpful get under that. Also I agree with the running very slow and going ahead flank when you hear the freight trian comming even if there is another escort is near by he is not going to be able to hear you do to all the noise that the attacker will be making with his high speed run. Every time I ever tried only running at flank when I heard the cans drop they often hit me. You need that flank speed to get away from the cans if you do it too late your dead. I run at flank until I hear the first can go off then I cut to all stop wait for all the bangs then based on the attacker bearing I will order a turn away from him to try keep my subs stearn towards them then I will go less than 1 knot when I then drive the sub in a fasion to try and keep em on the stearn. Also make sure that when you go to falnk speed that your rudder is null any degree of turn will slow your speed when you need it most to avoid cans. I tend not to go too deep either unless they really seem to getting close I like to get below 300(Gato or later) but not too deep I want to have something to hide in latter if you go all the way to 400 right away then your screwed if they ping you as you have now set a mark for them that you will be at least that deep. At the same time diffrent people have diffrent systems what works for one may not work for another. Playing TMO 1.7 with latest RSRD. Also learn to be able to tell when you hear cans hit the water when they are a danger and when they are not the last thing you want to do is hit full speed when you hear cans dropping when they dont have a fix on you and they are off as once you hit flank speed they will figure out where you are.Listen for that train a comin that is the sure sign that your in danger of a run.Listen to your soundman if you know the escorts arent very close and the can splashes arent loud it is a sure sign they are pining something else not your sub or at least not where your sub really is.