Ghosts of Bataan

[Ducimus]

Last night i was watching this show on the military channel called "Ghosts of Bataan". Now like a lot of people ive heard of the bataan death march, maybe glossed over it in a history book, but never really paid any attention to it. If i could find this program on google videos or youtube id post a link, it was very moving to hear the surviors talk. But one comment one of those vets made when weighed against the attrocities committed by the japanese was that at pearl harbor, around 2,400 people were killed. On the Bataan death march, the death count there is cited by some courses as between 6,000, and 11,000 men, other sources cite the figure as 18,000 men - AND YET... you never hear of it. No mention of it at all in the movies or anything.

So whats the big deal?

(i know wiki isn't the greatest, but its really hard to screw this info up)

The march, involving the forcible transfer of 75,000 American and Filipino prisoners of war[1] captured by the Japanese in the Philippines from the Bataan peninsula to prison camps, was characterized by wide-ranging physical abuse and murder, and resulted in very high fatalities inflicted upon the prisoners and civilians along the route by the armed forces of the Empire of Japan. Beheadings, cut throats and casual shootings were the more common and merciful actions — compared to bayonet stabbings, rapes, guttings (disembowelments), numerous rifle butt beatings and a deliberate refusal to allow the prisoners food or water while keeping them continually marching for nearly a week (for the slowest survivors) in tropical heat. Falling down, unable to continue moving was tantamount to a death sentence, as was any degree of protest or expression of displeasure.

Prisoners were attacked for assisting someone failing due to weakness, or for no apparent reason whatsoever. Strings of Japanese trucks were known to drive over anyone who fell. Riders in vehicles would casually stick out a rifle bayonet and cut a string of throats in the lines of men marching alongside the road. Accounts of being forcibly marched for five to six days with no food and a single sip of water are in post war archives including filmed reports.[2]

The exact death count has been impossible to determine, but some historians have placed the minimum death toll between six and eleven thousand men; whereas other post war allied reports have tabulated that only 54,000 of the 72,000 prisoners reached their destination— taken together, the figures document a casual killing rate of one in four up to two in seven (25% to 28.5%) of those brutalized by the forcible march. The number of deaths that took place in the internment camps from delayed effects of the march is uncertain, but believed to be high.

So where exactly is Bataan on the map? I'll wager most won't know.




Some links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March
http://ghostofbataan.com/
http://www.npswapa.org/gallery/album14

[les green01]

one death Marcher told me he was helping another Prisioner and they came under fire and that that guy beat him to the ditch the old veteran said he knew he was in trouble then and it really made him question about helping any others.

[momo55]

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...deoid=33208681

[Sailor Steve]

When I went to join my ship they flew us to Clark AFB, then we went by truck from Clark to Subic Bay. Part of our route was along the path of the death march. Our Philipino truck driver told us a little about it - he was a boy at the time, and witnessed the prisoners passing through his village.

[Hylander_1314]

You have the Bataan Peninsula marked right. That type of treatment from the Japs in WWII is one of the reasons the American attitude in the Pacific was, no quarter asked for, none given.

Another good one to watch out for is, Hell in the Pacific. History International will run all 4 hours in two parts, where as the Military Channel ran a paraphrased 2 hour version of it. One former Marine that was on Iwo, and Okinawa, said they would blow up the caves with granades, and, or bury them with dozers, not knowing if they were military personel or civilians. And he made the comment that it would appear cruel to most people today, but he also added the statement "we were here, not you". This was done to save American lives, as too many men were being lost to trying to explore the caves for civilians or military personel. Some units even prided themselves on the fact that they never took any prisoners.

Was the island fighting the worst? For the Americans, and their allies, it was the equivilant of the fighting on the Eastern front, that took place the German Army, and the Russian Army. The Japanese treated the civilian population of conquered territory, as badly, or worse than the German troops did. They were known to take civilian women of the places they conquered and force them to be "comfort girls". No need to elaborate on that one. They were also known to take p.o.w.'s and make them dig waist deep ditches, then make the same p.o.w.'s stand in them with gasoline up to the knees. As far as igniting the gasoline, I don't recollect any accounts of it, but who knows what's been omitted from history. Pappy Boyington told of doing and enduring this type of treatment after he was picked by a Japanese sub after being shot down over New Georgia Strait. He even claimed to be in one of the news films the Japanese made of the prisoners having to do this.

A member of the R/C model boat club Dad and I belonged to back in Michigan many years ago had a member who was captured by the Japanese. He had some horror stories he would tell us about. The forms of torture were hidious, by any era's standards. But the "whites" or "round eyes" as the enemies of Japan were called, deserved nothing better according to their own "racist" views on the Americans, and Brits, and Austrailian, and New Zealand, and Dutch prisoners. And the civilians in internment camps faired none to much better either. Far worse than the internment camps that America used for the Japanese American civilians. Not to say that it was right, but no where near what their Japanese did to the civilians interred in the camps.

Check out another one called "The War" that PBS runs. It gives you a good history of the internment camps. Along with other aspects of the War.

It was a terrible thing to endure no matter what country you had the misfortune of being in at the wrong time.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Hylander_1314

Another good one to watch out for is, Hell in the Pacific. History International will run all 4 hours in two parts, where as the Military Channel ran a paraphrased 2 hour version of it.

I didnt know that. I just saw part 2 on the military channel. Bummer.

At the least, heres the paraphrased part 1 i posted elsewhere.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...KoSwrAPV0dSIDg

[Hylander_1314]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I didnt know that. I just saw part 2 on the military channel. Bummer.

At the least, heres the paraphrased part 1 i posted elsewhere.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...KoSwrAPV0dSIDg

Keep an eye out for it with Memorial Day coming up. Alsao watch out for it on Veteran's (Armistice) Day.

That's one I wish was left as original, as it signalled the end of WWI. The 11th hour, of the 11th day, of the 11th month, all hostillities will cease on the Western Front. VE-Day, and VJ-Day, and all the others should be individually respected too. Not combined into one, so as to dilute the meaning of each. It ruins and makes insignificant each of it's importance in our history, and what was sacrificed. But that's just my take on it.

I remember as a youngster growing up, we would celebrate each individually, for our family members who served. And if it fell on a school day, my folks would excuse me from school for it. And on Armistice Day, we kids in school would sell paper poppies for a buck each and donate the procedes to the veteran's hospitol in Detroit.

[steinbeck]

To Quote 'So where exactly is Bataan on the map? I'll wager most won't know'.

Why do you assume MOST people don't know? I'm in the UK and and I know about 'Bataan', the tunnels etc. How McArthur escaped in spite of his asserting 'we can hold' etc and also about 'Corregidor' and they only took off specialists and so forth! Perhaps you should have qualified it by saying 'most young people' won't know.

steinbeck....

I'd have to agree with the 'Most people' statement.
Very few people do know what went on not only with the Death March,
but afterwards.
The death rates in the Camp, the 'Hell Ships' which made the Camps seem friendly?
It really goes on and on.
Not just Bataan, but the whole Pacific war is full of examples of mass slaughter.
One of my Grand Fathers fought in the Pacific.
I remember to this day some of the things he told me about.
As I grew older and would ask him for more stories,
He finally reached a point where he would not talk about it.
Not until I served in Combat did I understand why he felt that way.

[Torpex752]

I wonder how many people know about the "Rape of Nanking"?

Frank

[Hylander_1314]

Originally Posted by Torpex752

I wonder how many people know about the "Rape of Nanking"?

Frank

I do. It was one of the most horrible attrocities on the Chinese Mainland in WWII. If not the most. But who knows what happenned in the back country, where there was no or very little contact with the outside world. Yes those would be smaller communities, but no less important in lives.

[banjo]

I would conjecture that you will find a higher than average knowledge of WW II in this forum.

Ducimus, I was more suprised to learn you have time to watch tv!

[ancient46]

I can remember sitting down in front of the TV every sunday to watch "Victory at Sea" as a child. The stock footage from the war and the wonderfully matched score by Richard Rodgers really was a real treat for a youhg boy. The horrors and intense struggles of the Armed forces and merchant marine depicted in those 26 shows had great impact. The sacrifice of men and women of all countries should be revered forever by every person on the planet. What we have today was made possible by those who served.

Anyone interested in the shows can find them on a three CD set by Mill Creek. I bought mine recently at Wal-Mart from the value bin for five dollars. It is just as good as I remembered.

[joegrundman]

I think Douglas MacArthur is an intriguing person.

Did you know he was very highly regarded in Japan (by the Japanese) during the post-war years?

I find it remarkable that a man with such a personal history in the pacific war was able to put it all aside and deal with the conquered japanese with such respect and finesse.

One of his aphorims, badly mangled by me, is that "it's easy to deal with the Japanese- you just have to imagine you are talking to precocious 12 year olds" to which the Japanese apparently agreed.

[Hylander_1314]

Wow! Victory at Sea. When I was a youngster, that was mine and Dad's special time. I would even be allowed to set my homework aside so we could watch it.

Ducimus,

I hope this thread doesn't take a nasty downturn. Having these "history" oriented threads is always good, as I sometimes pick up little additions to historical references I may already be familiar with.

Can't argue with the issue about Independence Day. I see it too, especially in the younger crowds. No care except that it's a 3 and sometimes 4 day weekend. "Give them bread and circus'".

It's pretty cool when my daughter has friends over for a group effort on History homework. I have a very captive audience. And all it takes, is my daughter to say, Dad, can you explain what happenned in the colonies after the Declaration of Independence was signed? And away I go!