Ghosts of Bataan
 

Last night i was watching this show on the military channel called "Ghosts of Bataan". Now like a lot of people ive heard of the bataan death march, maybe glossed over it in a history book, but never really paid any attention to it. If i could find this program on google videos or youtube id post a link, it was very moving to hear the surviors talk. But one comment one of those vets made when weighed against the attrocities committed by the japanese was that at pearl harbor, around 2,400 people were killed. On the Bataan death march, the death count there is cited by some courses as between 6,000, and 11,000 men, other sources cite the figure as 18,000 men - AND YET... you never hear of it. No mention of it at all in the movies or anything.

So whats the big deal?

(i know wiki isn't the greatest, but its really hard to screw this info up)

So where exactly is Bataan on the map? I'll wager most won't know.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/bataan.jpg



Some links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March
http://ghostofbataan.com/
http://www.npswapa.org/gallery/album14

one death Marcher told me he was helping another Prisioner and they came under fire and that that guy beat him to the ditch the old veteran said he knew he was in trouble then and it really made him question about helping any others.

When I went to join my ship they flew us to Clark AFB, then we went by truck from Clark to Subic Bay. Part of our route was along the path of the death march. Our Philipino truck driver told us a little about it - he was a boy at the time, and witnessed the prisoners passing through his village.

You have the Bataan Peninsula marked right. That type of treatment from the Japs in WWII is one of the reasons the American attitude in the Pacific was, no quarter asked for, none given.

Another good one to watch out for is, Hell in the Pacific. History International will run all 4 hours in two parts, where as the Military Channel ran a paraphrased 2 hour version of it. One former Marine that was on Iwo, and Okinawa, said they would blow up the caves with granades, and, or bury them with dozers, not knowing if they were military personel or civilians. And he made the comment that it would appear cruel to most people today, but he also added the statement "we were here, not you". This was done to save American lives, as too many men were being lost to trying to explore the caves for civilians or military personel. Some units even prided themselves on the fact that they never took any prisoners.

Was the island fighting the worst? For the Americans, and their allies, it was the equivilant of the fighting on the Eastern front, that took place the German Army, and the Russian Army. The Japanese treated the civilian population of conquered territory, as badly, or worse than the German troops did. They were known to take civilian women of the places they conquered and force them to be "comfort girls". No need to elaborate on that one. They were also known to take p.o.w.'s and make them dig waist deep ditches, then make the same p.o.w.'s stand in them with gasoline up to the knees. As far as igniting the gasoline, I don't recollect any accounts of it, but who knows what's been omitted from history. Pappy Boyington told of doing and enduring this type of treatment after he was picked by a Japanese sub after being shot down over New Georgia Strait. He even claimed to be in one of the news films the Japanese made of the prisoners having to do this.

A member of the R/C model boat club Dad and I belonged to back in Michigan many years ago had a member who was captured by the Japanese. He had some horror stories he would tell us about. The forms of torture were hidious, by any era's standards. But the "whites" or "round eyes" as the enemies of Japan were called, deserved nothing better according to their own "racist" views on the Americans, and Brits, and Austrailian, and New Zealand, and Dutch prisoners. And the civilians in internment camps faired none to much better either. Far worse than the internment camps that America used for the Japanese American civilians. Not to say that it was right, but no where near what their Japanese did to the civilians interred in the camps.

Check out another one called "The War" that PBS runs. It gives you a good history of the internment camps. Along with other aspects of the War.

It was a terrible thing to endure no matter what country you had the misfortune of being in at the wrong time.

I didnt know that. I just saw part 2 on the military channel. Bummer.

At the least, heres the paraphrased part 1 i posted elsewhere.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...KoSwrAPV0dSIDg

Keep an eye out for it with Memorial Day coming up. Alsao watch out for it on Veteran's (Armistice) Day.

That's one I wish was left as original, as it signalled the end of WWI. The 11th hour, of the 11th day, of the 11th month, all hostillities will cease on the Western Front. VE-Day, and VJ-Day, and all the others should be individually respected too. Not combined into one, so as to dilute the meaning of each. It ruins and makes insignificant each of it's importance in our history, and what was sacrificed. But that's just my take on it.

I remember as a youngster growing up, we would celebrate each individually, for our family members who served. And if it fell on a school day, my folks would excuse me from school for it. And on Armistice Day, we kids in school would sell paper poppies for a buck each and donate the procedes to the veteran's hospitol in Detroit.

Watching these documentaries really opens ones eyes to the collective picture. One common misconception i think alot of people have (myself included at one point) was that the pacifc war was primarly America vs Japan. That simply isnt true. If one watchs the above linked 48 min documentary you'll see there were alot more countries involved then just America. The brutality at the hospital towards the end in above linked URL really is just... hard to comprehend.

Overall, i think its important to understand the entire theater, because then when you look again at the Pacific submarine war, suddenly all the pieces start falling into place once you have the larger picture and the role it played. Overall though, comparitvely, the submarine war was probably considered brutal by atlantic moral standards but tame compared to the rest of the pacific theater.

It really is a shame that the pacific theater doesnt get as much coverage as the European theater. Its almost like a forgotten war within WW2 itself, most certainly however, there is nothing glamorous about it at all. It's arguably the ugliest war ever fought.

And don't forget that the "lion's share" of men and material was sent to fight European War as Hitler was considered more dangerous than Tojo, and the Japanese Warlords.

You are correct that it wasn't just America's war. There were lots of others involved from the European countries who had established trade routes and colonial holdings, or post colonial holdings but remained on trading terms with the mainland and island countries. Austrailia and New Zealand were fighting for their lives in the Pacific. America had such an importance to the effort, as America provided a means of manufacturing that the Axis Partners just couldn't compete with. And America was out of range of the bombers that the Axis used. So while the Axis was bombed to rubble, America kicked into high gear, and by July of '43 outpaced all the Axis countries in production combined.

But for America, the Pacific War was personal. America was blindsided by an enemy who was thought to be treacherous in it's attitude of conducting war, from the initial attacks, to how the war was conducted to the end. The U.S. was also supplying it's Pacific Allies with material too. So that they cold continue the fight until the American forces were up to full potential.

The film, Letters from Iwo Jima, shows the American industrial power at it's height with all the ships from the task forces used to pommel the island into submission. It was a far cry from just 3 years earlier, when the U.S. didn't even have enough B-17s to mount a real bombimg mission. As they were considered too expensive for the war department's budget to mass produce in the numbers that were actually needed.

To Quote 'So where exactly is Bataan on the map? I'll wager most won't know'.

Why do you assume MOST people don't know? I'm in the UK and and I know about 'Bataan', the tunnels etc. How McArthur escaped in spite of his asserting 'we can hold' etc and also about 'Corregidor' and they only took off specialists and so forth! Perhaps you should have qualified it by saying 'most young people' won't know.

steinbeck....:smug:

I'd have to agree with the 'Most people' statement.
Very few people do know what went on not only with the Death March,
but afterwards.
The death rates in the Camp, the 'Hell Ships' which made the Camps seem friendly?
It really goes on and on.
Not just Bataan, but the whole Pacific war is full of examples of mass slaughter.
One of my Grand Fathers fought in the Pacific.
I remember to this day some of the things he told me about.
As I grew older and would ask him for more stories,
He finally reached a point where he would not talk about it.
Not until I served in Combat did I understand why he felt that way.

I wonder how many people know about the "Rape of Nanking"?

Frank

I do. It was one of the most horrible attrocities on the Chinese Mainland in WWII. If not the most. But who knows what happenned in the back country, where there was no or very little contact with the outside world. Yes those would be smaller communities, but no less important in lives.

I would conjecture that you will find a higher than average knowledge of WW II in this forum.

Ducimus, I was more suprised to learn you have time to watch tv! :D

>>Why do you assume MOST people don't know?

Oh, i have every reason to assume most people in general don't know. Im not kidding, i have met people here (in real life) who did not know why we celebrate the 4th of july here in the US. Its been, beer, bbq, and fireworks for so long, and they haven't the foggest idea what its all about. Or at the very least, didn't know the year, 1776. Now if people can't even remember what july 4th, or the year 1776 is about, A little pennisnula like bataan is certainly not in their historical vocabulary. Another humorus observation: There was a war in Korea? Wow, no kidding?

>>Ducimus, I was more suprised to learn you have time to watch tv!

Havent been modding that much lately.