For bold u-boat skippers only!

Freiwillige · 03-07-08, 10:55 PM

I watched battlefeilds last night the topic was the atlantic war. Anyway alot of the show 75% was about u-boats. Anyways It said that bold and experianced u-boat captains when forced to dive stayed near the surface because Asdic was unreliable near the surface. And they would stay near the convoy because the convoy masked there noise. A destroyer had to be close to pick a sub up near the surface and when they went over the sub it left a blank window for the sub to escape/ change course while the destroyer was blind. I remeber that in AOD I used to do the same thing and it worked well. Anybody use this tactic? It makes sense since asdic points downward. Also the show stated that the rougher the weather the worse asdic worked near the surface.

GoldenRivet · 03-07-08, 11:17 PM

unfortunately i dont think that the ASW aspect of the sim is recreated to such a level so one could take advantage of such tactics.

i think the ASDIC works to a certain depth and then it just suddenly stops working.

ASDIC and sonar are complex beasts, and i think the trick to making a great subsim is to figure out a way to model or at least account for all of these little complexities.

I have often made attempts to hide under the convoy - but not for the reasons you have stated... but simply because the collision avoidance programming of the AI causes them to frequently break off attacks in order to avoid ramming other ships, even if the ship is in the process of sinking.

Umfuld · 03-07-08, 11:20 PM

Yup. All those factors are represented in SH3. And it's a good idea to practice such tactics when the need calls for it.
I find the being close to the surface / harder to find rule to be a huge factor.

Though actually I'm not 100% about being harder for escorts to detect you if you are in tight with a convoy. I assume this is so in the game, just don't know it for a fact.

edit: laughed at seeing GoldenRivet's take is different from mine. Figured I'd say I don't claim to be an expert Freiwillige. And tend to defer to others here on such matters. Just giving my 2 cents. : /

Freiwillige · 03-07-08, 11:27 PM

Upon further research it seems that once this was understood in the kreigsmarine it was a common and well known tactic. I would find it hard to beleive that the developers didnt take that into account when the developers of AOD did.

GoldenRivet · 03-07-08, 11:29 PM

Im open to the idea of being wrong.

But i have found through my experience that the escorts have no notable difficulty in finding you with asdic at periscope depth or at shallow depths.

As far as im aware the game logic either figures your under the water or you're not. :hmm:
Also, in this same regard, i think that the game logic does not allow you to mask your noise using the noise of other ships.

hopefully someone who knows for sure can chime in.

Graf Paper · 03-07-08, 11:37 PM

Whether any of these tactics work or not, regardless of how SH3 models ASDIC detection, there is one thing for sure you can count on...

No matter what you do, the enemy will eventually find you!

GoldenRivet · 03-07-08, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graf Paper

Whether any of these tactics work or not, regardless of how SH3 models ASDIC detection, there is one thing for sure you can count on...

No matter what you do, the enemy will eventually find you!

You're right about that one.

I wish i had a dollar for every campaign that ended with me sweating out a harrowing depth charge and hedgehog attack at 280+ meters.

I have pretty much decided that after mid 1943 i will no longer strike convoys, i will only stalk lone merchants.

Umfuld · 03-07-08, 11:48 PM

My assumption was based mainly on the detailed illustration in the GWX manual regarding depth and detection. Figured they would know and wouldn't go through the trouble of detailing it like that if it wasn't a factor in the game.

But it was just an assumption.

Brag · 03-07-08, 11:49 PM

I think that in the game staying close to the surface is suicide.

Freiwillige · 03-08-08, 12:08 AM

I propose to test this theory. Periscope depth avoidance. I will try this many times throughout the week and post my results. any other testers want to volunteer their u-boat time?

Umfuld · 03-08-08, 12:17 AM

After you've attacked you should dive. They will be actively looking and you don't want to be near the surface then.

When I trust it is approaching a convoy. You can have the lead escort pass 100m in front of you and I always feel a lot safer if I'm just under the waves then.
Again though, no idea if its really a factor.
Probably not. If not, I don't wanna know.

Graf Paper · 03-08-08, 12:42 AM

If you look closely at the way GWX describes ASDIC, it's angled in such a way that your depth and distance from the escort affects whether you're detected or not.

The deeper you are, the further away you can be and still "duck under" the ASDIC's detection radius and angle. Shallow depths would necessitate being almost directly underneath the escort to avoid detection.

Depth is your friend. It gives you more room to fake out the escorts and also to avoid depth charges as they drop.

[side note]: I've noticed my avatar has changed to the dreaded "Medic". I hope it doesn't take too long to dispose of "tampon head" and move on to the next round of embarassing avatars. :p

"Ze admin, he has much understanding of der hoochie-woochie!", to borrow a term from the much respected Balz. :rotfl:

Wolfehunter · 03-08-08, 02:27 AM

I'm not sure how the game mechanics works, most of the time I stay around the surface. Last patrol I tried to see how deep I could go with a VIIC I dived to 165 meters down just before the red. I had 6 destroyers hunting me. It was a large convoy. Half of my torpedos were dudes jezus I was mad. Bouncing torpedos. only 2 hit the rest missed. At least I got one kill large tanker. Anyhow at 165meters when the destroyers got pretty close overhead they stopped pinging. So I assumed I passed there sensor range. When they where about 1000 meters or more away they had a chance to ping me but it wasn't strong. This was mid year of 1941. :hmm: I did get away after 4 1/2 hours of playing cat and mouse.

By the way what is the maximum depth can I go before the sub pops.

TarJak · 03-08-08, 03:35 AM

In rougher seas it is often safer to stay silent at PD than deeper from and ASDIC detection perspective.

Kipparikalle · 03-08-08, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarJak

In rougher seas it is often safer to stay silent at PD than deeper from and ASDO\IC detection perspective.

And trust me, this really works.

I attacked a convoy, scored some good hits on large ships and left them sink.
Now I had escorts hunting me, it was storming and I forgot to go deeper than PD.

Suddenly, the escorts lost me. I was pretty confused about this first, before I realized what really happened.

03-07-08, 10:55 PM	#1
Freiwillige The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Phx. Az Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	For bold u-boat skippers only! I watched battlefeilds last night the topic was the atlantic war. Anyway alot of the show 75% was about u-boats. Anyways It said that bold and experianced u-boat captains when forced to dive stayed near the surface because Asdic was unreliable near the surface. And they would stay near the convoy because the convoy masked there noise. A destroyer had to be close to pick a sub up near the surface and when they went over the sub it left a blank window for the sub to escape/ change course while the destroyer was blind. I remeber that in AOD I used to do the same thing and it worked well. Anybody use this tactic? It makes sense since asdic points downward. Also the show stated that the rougher the weather the worse asdic worked near the surface.

03-07-08, 11:17 PM	#2
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	unfortunately i dont think that the ASW aspect of the sim is recreated to such a level so one could take advantage of such tactics. i think the ASDIC works to a certain depth and then it just suddenly stops working. ASDIC and sonar are complex beasts, and i think the trick to making a great subsim is to figure out a way to model or at least account for all of these little complexities. I have often made attempts to hide under the convoy - but not for the reasons you have stated... but simply because the collision avoidance programming of the AI causes them to frequently break off attacks in order to avoid ramming other ships, even if the ship is in the process of sinking. __________________

03-07-08, 11:29 PM	#5
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	Im open to the idea of being wrong. But i have found through my experience that the escorts have no notable difficulty in finding you with asdic at periscope depth or at shallow depths. As far as im aware the game logic either figures your under the water or you're not. :hmm: Also, in this same regard, i think that the game logic does not allow you to mask your noise using the noise of other ships. hopefully someone who knows for sure can chime in. __________________

03-07-08, 11:37 PM	#6
Graf Paper Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Pacific Northwest United States Posts: 1,146 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 2	Whether any of these tactics work or not, regardless of how SH3 models ASDIC detection, there is one thing for sure you can count on... No matter what you do, the enemy will eventually find you! __________________ Still sailing the high seas, hunting convoys with those who join me.

03-07-08, 11:49 PM	#9
Brag Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Docked on a Russian pond Posts: 7,072 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I think that in the game staying close to the surface is suicide. __________________ Espionage, adventure, suspense, are just a click away Click here to look inside Brag's book: Amazon.com: Kingmaker: Alexey Braguine: Books Order Kingmaker here: http://www.subsim.com/store.html For Tactics visit:http://www.freewebs.com/kielman/

03-07-08, 11:20 PM	#3
Umfuld Captain Join Date: May 2006 Location: USA Posts: 503 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Yup. All those factors are represented in SH3. And it's a good idea to practice such tactics when the need calls for it. I find the being close to the surface / harder to find rule to be a huge factor. Though actually I'm not 100% about being harder for escorts to detect you if you are in tight with a convoy. I assume this is so in the game, just don't know it for a fact. edit: laughed at seeing GoldenRivet's take is different from mine. Figured I'd say I don't claim to be an expert Freiwillige. And tend to defer to others here on such matters. Just giving my 2 cents. : /

03-07-08, 11:27 PM	#4
Freiwillige The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Phx. Az Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	Upon further research it seems that once this was understood in the kreigsmarine it was a common and well known tactic. I would find it hard to beleive that the developers didnt take that into account when the developers of AOD did.

03-07-08, 11:48 PM	#8
Umfuld Captain Join Date: May 2006 Location: USA Posts: 503 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	My assumption was based mainly on the detailed illustration in the GWX manual regarding depth and detection. Figured they would know and wouldn't go through the trouble of detailing it like that if it wasn't a factor in the game. But it was just an assumption.

03-08-08, 12:08 AM	#10
Freiwillige The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Phx. Az Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	I propose to test this theory. Periscope depth avoidance. I will try this many times throughout the week and post my results. any other testers want to volunteer their u-boat time?

03-08-08, 12:17 AM	#11
Umfuld Captain Join Date: May 2006 Location: USA Posts: 503 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	After you've attacked you should dive. They will be actively looking and you don't want to be near the surface then. When I trust it is approaching a convoy. You can have the lead escort pass 100m in front of you and I always feel a lot safer if I'm just under the waves then. Again though, no idea if its really a factor. Probably not. If not, I don't wanna know.

03-08-08, 12:42 AM	#12
Graf Paper Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Pacific Northwest United States Posts: 1,146 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 2	If you look closely at the way GWX describes ASDIC, it's angled in such a way that your depth and distance from the escort affects whether you're detected or not. The deeper you are, the further away you can be and still "duck under" the ASDIC's detection radius and angle. Shallow depths would necessitate being almost directly underneath the escort to avoid detection. Depth is your friend. It gives you more room to fake out the escorts and also to avoid depth charges as they drop. [side note]: I've noticed my avatar has changed to the dreaded "Medic". I hope it doesn't take too long to dispose of "tampon head" and move on to the next round of embarassing avatars. :p "Ze admin, he has much understanding of der hoochie-woochie!", to borrow a term from the much respected Balz. :rotfl: __________________ Still sailing the high seas, hunting convoys with those who join me.

03-08-08, 02:27 AM	#13
Wolfehunter Crusty Capt. Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,752 Downloads: 40 Uploads: 25	I'm not sure how the game mechanics works, most of the time I stay around the surface. Last patrol I tried to see how deep I could go with a VIIC I dived to 165 meters down just before the red. I had 6 destroyers hunting me. It was a large convoy. Half of my torpedos were dudes jezus I was mad. Bouncing torpedos. only 2 hit the rest missed. At least I got one kill large tanker. Anyhow at 165meters when the destroyers got pretty close overhead they stopped pinging. So I assumed I passed there sensor range. When they where about 1000 meters or more away they had a chance to ping me but it wasn't strong. This was mid year of 1941. :hmm: I did get away after 4 1/2 hours of playing cat and mouse. By the way what is the maximum depth can I go before the sub pops. __________________

03-08-08, 03:35 AM	#14
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	In rougher seas it is often safer to stay silent at PD than deeper from and ASDIC detection perspective. Last edited by TarJak; 03-08-08 at 04:16 AM.