Stay on the surface

joho · 10-10-07, 12:55 PM

Ive read a few books about the Uboot aces and their tactics.
It seems to me that the most sucessfull captains slipt pass the escort screen on the surface into the convoy lauching the attack from the inside.
Now the countermesaure from the escorts was to let the forward escorts run down the sides of the convoy in oposite direction of the convoy looking for submerged targets.
The "only" risk for the Uboat once inside the convoy was beeing detected by a merchant.
Now to my question Is it possible to preform an attack of this kind in GWX?

The publication "Grey wolf grey sea" is a masterpiece in the subject at hand.

melnibonian · 10-10-07, 01:00 PM

As in reality early in the war if the weather conditions are good you can manage a surface attack on a convoy. As the years go by though it becomes more and more difficult.

One thing to remember though is that in real life the distances between ships in convoys were significantly larger than in GWX (that's an issue with the game engine and not with GWX BTW) making these types of attacks easier.

Brag · 10-10-07, 01:25 PM

If you decide to make surface attacks go in with your decks awash. You achieve this by ordering a depth of 6 or 7 meters. This will reduce the escort's abillity to detect you.

Ping Panther · 10-10-07, 01:26 PM

Welcome aboard joho,

British escorts maneuver you mentioned was often known as a "Half Raspberry".

Jimbuna · 10-10-07, 01:28 PM

One of the most famous commanders of them all, Otto Kretschmer was only captured because he was below decks when one of his junior officers ignored his standing orders one evening during a surfaced convoy attack.....namely, if spotted on the surface never dive if at all possible.

http://uboat.net/men/kretschmer.htm

Capt. Shark Bait · 10-10-07, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ping Panther

Welcome aboard joho,

British escorts maneuver you mentioned was often known as a "Half Raspberry".

so, this would be a full raspberry?:p

joegrundman · 10-10-07, 08:57 PM

never dive? So what did he propose to do instead?

Frostyvegi · 10-10-07, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joegrundman

never dive? So what did he propose to do instead?

Pretend to be a merchantman, perhaps? Or maybe pretend to be defecting.. :P

Kpt. Lehmann · 10-10-07, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joegrundman

never dive? So what did he propose to do instead?

Kretchmer would use low light (typical attack times for U-boats) and would outrun destroyers on the surface... With your bow or stern pointed at the enemy, it is more difficult for you to be seen. (This is called "low aspect ratio.")

The same is true in reverse. It is harder for your crew to spot vessels head on, or from behind... again low aspect ratio. (Using active sonar or radar another term used interchangeably/ in lieu of aspect ratio is "cross-section.")

Kretchmer was able to get away on the surface because he was good at estimating the fringes of detection. By the time DD's could charge after him with their greater surface speed... Kretchmer was too far away to warrant further chase and the escorts would have to return to the convoy due to the threat of other U-boats in the area... sometimes real and sometimes perceived.

Kretchmer was also known for getting inside convoys where escorts couldn't... or wouldn't think of looking for him... and taking advantage of the risk of collision at night.

Not very long ago there was a big thread/debate on whether or not surface attacks were possible at night in GWX. Penelope_Grey and some others were quite successful at it... though it was quite difficult... and you must remain very aware of your surroundings.

Once an attack is successful... and the convoy goes "full active" firing off starshells, using searchlights, going evasive, and escorts performing the Raspberry maneuver... I do suggest that you find a way to be elsewhere as soon as possible.

Remember... Hit and run!

If you try to stay and fight... nature will take its course.

joegrundman · 10-10-07, 11:38 PM

For sure i also do surface night attacks on convoys, it's a great thrill and it's nice to be able to run to safety on the surfaace at 14 knts instead of underwater at 2 knts and be ready for a second attack at dawn.

But IF I'm detected and i have a destroyer running at me I have always assumed it's better to dive. PErhaps I should try to outrun them

Kpt. Lehmann · 10-11-07, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joegrundman

For sure i also do surface night attacks on convoys, it's a great thrill and it's nice to be able to run to safety on the surfaace at 14 knts instead of underwater at 2 knts and be ready for a second attack at dawn.

But IF I'm detected and i have a destroyer running at me I have always assumed it's better to dive. PErhaps I should try to outrun them

In SH3/GWX, they will tend to catch you more often than not... HOWEVER, if you can grab some distance from the convoy... crashdive... and give the escort chasing you the slip before help arrives...

... They'll happily DC the heck out of the area you were last reported to be in... while you are creeping away on silent running deep below.

Other notes on surface attacks: (To anyone who cares to read)

-Fire salvoes of at least two to increase your chances of sinking your target.

-Do not try to STAY and fight it out on the surface. (When an attack is successful, they KNOW you are out there somewhere and will break their butts to find and kill you... because you are trying to choke the life out of England, remember?) If you get greedy... you will die.

-Do not underestimate the power of the merchant deck gun... and remember that as the war goes on, each ship mounts more and more of them. They aren't usually very accurate, (inertial and laser guided stability has been removed from every gun in GWX) however if you have my luck, a single unlucky shell hit will kill your entire watch crew and your favorite officer. Besides, accuracy doesn't matter when you've got guns coming our of your ears. Put enough rounds down-range and some will hit. Merchants can kill you.

-It is easier for the enemy to spot you big ole' wake than it is for them to spot your sub.

-The enemy "talks" to each other. (signal lamp and/or wireless) If they see you, they will tell all their buddies... including fleet and air assets many kilometers farther than you can see.

-When you have been spotted... for a few moments there is no point in stealth. Ring up flank speed if you haven't already, and crashdive... get deep... then go silent... and forget about sinking ships while you are busy surviving.

-Wait for the "Tail-end Charlie" and pick him off. In so doing you've already put a bit of distance between yourself and those who'd like to punch your ticket.

-Stop wasting eels on escorts... the tonnage... and your mission... is to sink the material being carried to England... that will be dropped on Germany.

-When you are in a tough spot and you let yourself get rattled... slow down and think.

Huskalar · 10-11-07, 03:26 AM

Tried surface attacks several times now, but was succesful only once. Looks like I have to practice some more.

melnibonian · 10-11-07, 06:51 AM

The weather conditions are very important for surface attacks. In my opinion it must
1. Be night and with no moon (or low visibility)
2. If the visibility is good (i.e. "bright" night) then it helps is the sea is medium as the waves can conceal your boat.
3. Be at Decks awash, fire a full salvo from a large distance (4-3500m), keep approaching and reload. Once the first torpedo hit fire whatever torpedo you have load and dive deep trying to cross to the other side of the convoy.

Ping Panther · 10-11-07, 08:21 AM

I also found that if some merchants nearest the middle & front of the columns are hit enough early on in an attack to either slow/stop them from the convoy cruise speed or hopefully get them sinking... it really puts a large number of following merchants into alot of chaotic course changes to avoid rear-ending others in line.

The escort cruiser was caught on the opposite side of my escape (my sub submerged by then), and found itself reversing to avoid collisions and trying to find a path clear to run to me across what was left of the merchants.

abel29a · 10-12-07, 12:01 PM

I've successfully outrun Destroyers on the surface on many occasions in GWX. Even in relatively good weather and with some moon it is possible to outrun DD's. First thing, point your strern at them, then give small rudder corrections to port or starboard to slowly alter course away from their course. They will usually bracket your suspected location with starshells, but if you manage to avoid being in the lit area placing yourself on the "dark side" gives you an even greater edge for outrunning them.

Of course, your success rate depends on the experience of the crews manning the escorts, but more often than not you can slip away. And you should always try, unless the DD is close enough to fire accurately at you, because the benefits of staying surfaced far outweighs the slim chance of getting hit by a lucky shot.

As for the surfaced attack - it works like a charm in GWX. Just maintain low profiles, decks awash and low speed as mentioned above. Also, if you want to make a surfaced getaway it's nearly impossible to attack from inside the convoy, as the searchlights will illuminate you. Attacking from either flank with a separation of 600m+ will allow you to manouver away after launching the attack, with the added benefit of allowing for a parting stern shot while escaping.

10-10-07, 12:55 PM	#1
joho Mate Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 52 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Stay on the surface Ive read a few books about the Uboot aces and their tactics. It seems to me that the most sucessfull captains slipt pass the escort screen on the surface into the convoy lauching the attack from the inside. Now the countermesaure from the escorts was to let the forward escorts run down the sides of the convoy in oposite direction of the convoy looking for submerged targets. The "only" risk for the Uboat once inside the convoy was beeing detected by a merchant. Now to my question Is it possible to preform an attack of this kind in GWX? The publication "Grey wolf grey sea" is a masterpiece in the subject at hand.

10-10-07, 01:00 PM	#2
melnibonian Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Reading UK Posts: 3,473 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	As in reality early in the war if the weather conditions are good you can manage a surface attack on a convoy. As the years go by though it becomes more and more difficult. One thing to remember though is that in real life the distances between ships in convoys were significantly larger than in GWX (that's an issue with the game engine and not with GWX BTW) making these types of attacks easier. __________________ http://www.thegreywolves.com/ http://wolvesatwar.com/ Download GWX and other goodies: http://hosted.filefront.com/melnibonian

10-10-07, 01:25 PM	#3
Brag Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Docked on a Russian pond Posts: 7,072 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	If you decide to make surface attacks go in with your decks awash. You achieve this by ordering a depth of 6 or 7 meters. This will reduce the escort's abillity to detect you. __________________ Espionage, adventure, suspense, are just a click away Click here to look inside Brag's book: Amazon.com: Kingmaker: Alexey Braguine: Books Order Kingmaker here: http://www.subsim.com/store.html For Tactics visit:http://www.freewebs.com/kielman/

10-10-07, 01:28 PM	#5
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,473 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	One of the most famous commanders of them all, Otto Kretschmer was only captured because he was below decks when one of his junior officers ignored his standing orders one evening during a surfaced convoy attack.....namely, if spotted on the surface never dive if at all possible. http://uboat.net/men/kretschmer.htm __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

10-10-07, 08:57 PM	#7
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	never dive? So what did he propose to do instead? __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

10-10-07, 01:26 PM	#4
Ping Panther Lieutenant Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: the armpit of the Mid-Atlantic / Quadrant CA42 Posts: 262 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Welcome aboard joho, British escorts maneuver you mentioned was often known as a *"Half Raspberry"*.

10-10-07, 11:38 PM	#10
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	For sure i also do surface night attacks on convoys, it's a great thrill and it's nice to be able to run to safety on the surfaace at 14 knts instead of underwater at 2 knts and be ready for a second attack at dawn. But IF I'm detected and i have a destroyer running at me I have always assumed it's better to dive. PErhaps I should try to outrun them __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

10-11-07, 03:26 AM	#12
Huskalar Ensign Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 221 Downloads: 176 Uploads: 0	Tried surface attacks several times now, but was succesful only once. Looks like I have to practice some more.

10-11-07, 06:51 AM	#13
melnibonian Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Reading UK Posts: 3,473 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	The weather conditions are very important for surface attacks. In my opinion it must 1. Be night and with no moon (or low visibility) 2. If the visibility is good (i.e. "bright" night) then it helps is the sea is medium as the waves can conceal your boat. 3. Be at Decks awash, fire a full salvo from a large distance (4-3500m), keep approaching and reload. Once the first torpedo hit fire whatever torpedo you have load and dive deep trying to cross to the other side of the convoy. __________________ http://www.thegreywolves.com/ http://wolvesatwar.com/ Download GWX and other goodies: http://hosted.filefront.com/melnibonian

10-11-07, 08:21 AM	#14
Ping Panther Lieutenant Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: the armpit of the Mid-Atlantic / Quadrant CA42 Posts: 262 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	I also found that if some merchants nearest the middle & front of the columns are hit enough early on in an attack to either slow/stop them from the convoy cruise speed or hopefully get them sinking... it really puts a large number of following merchants into alot of chaotic course changes to avoid rear-ending others in line. The escort cruiser was caught on the opposite side of my escape (my sub submerged by then), and found itself reversing to avoid collisions and trying to find a path clear to run to me across what was left of the merchants.

10-12-07, 12:01 PM	#15
abel29a Helmsman Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Trondheim, Norway Posts: 101 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I've successfully outrun Destroyers on the surface on many occasions in GWX. Even in relatively good weather and with some moon it is possible to outrun DD's. First thing, point your strern at them, then give small rudder corrections to port or starboard to slowly alter course away from their course. They will usually bracket your suspected location with starshells, but if you manage to avoid being in the lit area placing yourself on the "dark side" gives you an even greater edge for outrunning them. Of course, your success rate depends on the experience of the crews manning the escorts, but more often than not you can slip away. And you should always try, unless the DD is close enough to fire accurately at you, because the benefits of staying surfaced far outweighs the slim chance of getting hit by a lucky shot. As for the surfaced attack - it works like a charm in GWX. Just maintain low profiles, decks awash and low speed as mentioned above. Also, if you want to make a surfaced getaway it's nearly impossible to attack from inside the convoy, as the searchlights will illuminate you. Attacking from either flank with a separation of 600m+ will allow you to manouver away after launching the attack, with the added benefit of allowing for a parting stern shot while escaping. __________________ "Sieben Tankern schlug die letze Stund, die U-Falle sank träger. Zwei Frachter liegen mit auf Grund, Versenkt vom Paukenschläger." - Reinhard Hardegen, U-123 GWX 1.03 and loving it....