How much can the SH3 engine take?

Ducimus · 01-19-07, 08:18 PM

This is something ive always wondered about. Seriously. Now to understand what im talking about, ill have to pick on GWX a little bit, and No GWX team, this isn't a sublte dig, (I worked on it too, remember?)

But the example being Load times in GWX. I mean, it takes a LONG time to load a game In GWX. Espeically when you compare it to stock, or UC, or even NYGM. all being loaded on the same system. The thing is, GWX went out of their way to reduce load times. The Texture directory being the primary example. The game loads a dat, (which contains textures), and then loads the textures in the tex directory over that. I know from experience its ALOT of damn working repacking dats with the textures you want, and the Tex directory in GWX is SPOTLESS.

And yet, the game still takes awhile to load. Ive always felt there was a limit as to how much the game can render, or support. In GWX the campaign files are huge with alot of traffic where before there was hardly any, and more Air and sea units being loaded then any other mod before it. Another thing ive always wondered is how far away does the game render a scripted unit in the RND or SCR layers in relation to the player? And you know, when theres alot of aircraft in biscay bay (via mod i made), you can feel it in the time compression now. In no other mod ive used have i encountered this, and in the mod ive run, ive used similar settings in other games. So its not like i ramped up the aircraft to astronomical porportions.

To sum, i think theres a limit somewhere. Are we near it? Unless theres some bug or quirk that when fixed reduces loadtimes, i think so. But thats just my own opinion, and ive been wrong before.

bigboywooly · 01-19-07, 08:25 PM

I have a feeling we arent there yet
The second load part is the longest and thats the campaign and ship\air units
The more we add the longer that will be
I think from a campaign point of view there isnt that much more that needs to be added
No doubt there will be a time when we reach the limits of new units or put up with real long load times

01-19-07, 08:37 PM

If you can upgrade your CPU and memory there is no defined limit I've found
in the areas I've looked at.
Load time is determined by how fast your system is and do you have enuff REAL memory.
The SH3 engine "Builds" everything in memory 1st, them kicks anything out of render range into a holding area of memory if you will.
I think we would all get bored and move on before we can truely overwhelm
the engine.
Why else would SH4 use a beefed up version of the same engine?
Ever notice how some of the old games really kick on todays systems?

Ducimus · 01-19-07, 10:23 PM

Well, if there is, or is not any hard limiations of the game engine, i think the only ones who could say for sure are Ubisoft. I think their might be, only because of the amount units generated by the game, and all background computations and routines that the game applies against them.

The obvious issue of course, like any other game is system resources. I think the comparision of taking an old game on a newer computer doesn't *always* apply. In some cases, it simply becomes unstable and crashes. But at any rate in terms of resources, when do we hit a point where we've added enough to the game, as to change the listed box requirements?

pontius · 01-20-07, 05:35 AM

Hi,
I use a very slim installation of SH3 for modding. I only have 512MBRam so I always have to wait abit. And its extremely annoying in the case of checking little details.

But when i want to play SH3, the loading times doesn't really matter to me. I always take me some time to play SH3, because its a game that needs time, not only the loading of it. For me Sh3 is not a game for a quicky.

So, when I take me my time to play Sh3 i use to read something along the loading-times and the x128-cruise

pontius

The Munster · 01-20-07, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by priater

If you can upgrade your CPU and memory there is no defined limit I've found
in the areas I've looked at.
Load time is determined by how fast your system is and do you have enuff REAL memory.
The SH3 engine "Builds" everything in memory 1st, them kicks anything out of render range into a holding area of memory if you will.
I think we would all get bored and move on before we can truely overwhelm
the engine.
Why else would SH4 use a beefed up version of the same engine?
Ever notice how some of the old games really kick on todays systems?

I think there is something to this as my ATI Radeon Computer loads quicker than my Nvidia one [both have the same Mods] so I get the impression the former has a more powerful CPU to the latter.

Hartmann · 01-20-07, 08:43 AM

I have 512 mg too and it takes a lot of loading, more than 5 minutes

. but i think too that is a "slow game" and when i load it i play for a lot of time .

Perhaps the problem could be if the engine could become becomes unstable or can´t manage too many things, and cause very anoying CTD´s or strange behaviours.
(worse with long loading times because you have to wait a lot of time again.)

I think that GWX put SH3 engine to the limits and nobody know how much can withstand , but this is like crush depth, you never know this deep until you are crushed.

One tip for tests and trials except for dinamic campaigns, is use academy missions or modify the convoy attack training mission with mission editor.
it takes very little time to load and is very good for see some things like textures, u boat behaviour, etc etc.

Single missions are the same than campaign in load times.

bigboywooly · 01-20-07, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartmann

Single missions are the same than campaign in load times.

That because everything is loaded as if you were running a career
All the shipping\aircraft and all the campaign files

Mush Martin · 01-20-07, 03:01 PM

ducimus in a limtied # of cases this may help

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=103633

its meant for mission building or mod testing in mission but is in no
way useful for campaigns
MM
[edit]I realize now this wont help you at all as youre question regards specifically campaign loading

rascal101 · 01-20-07, 04:26 PM

I would have thought you could tweak and tweak till the cows come home. Speaking of which, will there be any more tweaking or developments from the GWX dev team?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

I have a feeling we arent there yet
The second load part is the longest and thats the campaign and ship\air units
The more we add the longer that will be
I think from a campaign point of view there isnt that much more that needs to be added
No doubt there will be a time when we reach the limits of new units or put up with real long load times

Ducimus · 01-20-07, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rascal101

I would have thought you could tweak and tweak till the cows come home.

No not really. Even if the Sh3 engine is totally open ended, your computer would eventually cap you. if you want to see yoru system CRAWL, create a massive naval engagement with every captial ship you can think of, throw them all together in one epic naval battle and watch the fun. Your system will eventuall slow down big time. I have an AMD 64 3500 with 2 Gigs of ram, and an ATI 1600 with 512 mbs of video ram and it studders quite a bit.

bigboywooly · 01-20-07, 04:31 PM

Yep there will be more
There is a minor update around Jan 31st then a planned update in the spring which should include new units and some new stuff
Hopefully it will include some of the other stuff released lately such as the Norfolk and the Repulse

Who knows - maybe Iambecome will have released his merchant pack by then also

Hartmann · 01-20-07, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

Yep there will be more
There is a minor update around Jan 31st then a planned update in the spring which should include new units and some new stuff
Hopefully it will include some of the other stuff released lately such as the Norfolk and the Repulse

Who knows - maybe Iambecome will have released his merchant pack by then also

wow

, it means more loading time and more memory

bigboywooly · 01-20-07, 06:45 PM

Not sure how large Iambecomes pack has got
But yes all extra units will impact on loading times
Not so much memory wise as the units in view wont be increased just a bigger variety when you come across a convoy etc

Already there is the Norfolk and the Repulse as well as Sergs merc mod 2 that are new since GWX released
Who knows what else may appear
Plus what anyone in GWX is building too

GT182 · 01-20-07, 10:57 PM

Just finished my 5th GWX patrol and timed the loading when I started from my last save. Which was submerged and in attack position on a lagre enemy convoy where 95% of all the ships could be seen. This I would think should have caused a long load due to all that had to spawn. Weather was clear. SHIII's initial loading was 56 seconds. Career loading was 1 min. 55 seconds. Not too long tho it seemed so. This is with a P4 3.2E CPU with 2 gigs of DDR 400 RAM, and a fresh defrag had been done. Hope it helps for a comparison.

01-19-07, 08:18 PM	#1
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	How much can the SH3 engine take? This is something ive always wondered about. Seriously. Now to understand what im talking about, ill have to pick on GWX a little bit, and No GWX team, this isn't a sublte dig, (I worked on it too, remember?) But the example being Load times in GWX. I mean, it takes a LONG time to load a game In GWX. Espeically when you compare it to stock, or UC, or even NYGM. all being loaded on the same system. The thing is, GWX went out of their way to reduce load times. The Texture directory being the primary example. The game loads a dat, (which contains textures), and then loads the textures in the tex directory over that. I know from experience its ALOT of damn working repacking dats with the textures you want, and the Tex directory in GWX is SPOTLESS. And yet, the game still takes awhile to load. Ive always felt there was a limit as to how much the game can render, or support. In GWX the campaign files are huge with alot of traffic where before there was hardly any, and more Air and sea units being loaded then any other mod before it. Another thing ive always wondered is how far away does the game render a scripted unit in the RND or SCR layers in relation to the player? And you know, when theres alot of aircraft in biscay bay (via mod i made), you can feel it in the time compression now. In no other mod ive used have i encountered this, and in the mod ive run, ive used similar settings in other games. So its not like i ramped up the aircraft to astronomical porportions. To sum, i think theres a limit somewhere. Are we near it? Unless theres some bug or quirk that when fixed reduces loadtimes, i think so. But thats just my own opinion, and ive been wrong before.

01-19-07, 08:25 PM	#2
bigboywooly Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 10,151 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	I have a feeling we arent there yet The second load part is the longest and thats the campaign and ship\air units The more we add the longer that will be I think from a campaign point of view there isnt that much more that needs to be added No doubt there will be a time when we reach the limits of new units or put up with real long load times __________________ My mediafire page http://www.mediafire.com/?11eoq19bq9r41

01-20-07, 08:43 AM	#7
Hartmann Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Grid CH 26, Spain ,Barcelona Posts: 1,857 Downloads: 204 Uploads: 0	I have 512 mg too and it takes a lot of loading, more than 5 minutes . but i think too that is a "slow game" and when i load it i play for a lot of time . Perhaps the problem could be if the engine could become becomes unstable or can´t manage too many things, and cause very anoying CTD´s or strange behaviours. (worse with long loading times because you have to wait a lot of time again.) I think that GWX put SH3 engine to the limits and nobody know how much can withstand , but this is like crush depth, you never know this deep until you are crushed. One tip for tests and trials except for dinamic campaigns, is use academy missions or modify the convoy attack training mission with mission editor. it takes very little time to load and is very good for see some things like textures, u boat behaviour, etc etc. Single missions are the same than campaign in load times. __________________ But this ship can't sink!... She is made of iron, sir. I assure you, she can. and she will. It is a mathematical certainty. Strength and honor

01-20-07, 03:01 PM	#9
Mush Martin Eternal Patrol Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,398 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	try this ducimus in a limtied # of cases this may help http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=103633 its meant for mission building or mod testing in mission but is in no way useful for campaigns MM [edit]I realize now this wont help you at all as youre question regards specifically campaign loading __________________ RIP Mush Tutorial Last edited by Mush Martin; 01-20-07 at 04:07 PM.

01-20-07, 04:31 PM	#12
bigboywooly Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 10,151 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Yep there will be more There is a minor update around Jan 31st then a planned update in the spring which should include new units and some new stuff Hopefully it will include some of the other stuff released lately such as the Norfolk and the Repulse Who knows - maybe Iambecome will have released his merchant pack by then also __________________ My mediafire page http://www.mediafire.com/?11eoq19bq9r41

01-19-07, 08:37 PM	#3
Madox58 Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	If you can upgrade your CPU and memory there is no defined limit I've found in the areas I've looked at. Load time is determined by how fast your system is and do you have enuff REAL memory. The SH3 engine "Builds" everything in memory 1st, them kicks anything out of render range into a holding area of memory if you will. I think we would all get bored and move on before we can truely overwhelm the engine. Why else would SH4 use a beefed up version of the same engine? Ever notice how some of the old games really kick on todays systems?

01-19-07, 10:23 PM	#4
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Well, if there is, or is not any hard limiations of the game engine, i think the only ones who could say for sure are Ubisoft. I think their might be, only because of the amount units generated by the game, and all background computations and routines that the game applies against them. The obvious issue of course, like any other game is system resources. I think the comparision of taking an old game on a newer computer doesn't always apply. In some cases, it simply becomes unstable and crashes. But at any rate in terms of resources, when do we hit a point where we've added enough to the game, as to change the listed box requirements?

01-20-07, 05:35 AM	#5
pontius Gunner Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Flensburg - Germany Posts: 99 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	Hi, I use a very slim installation of SH3 for modding. I only have 512MBRam so I always have to wait abit. And its extremely annoying in the case of checking little details. But when i want to play SH3, the loading times doesn't really matter to me. I always take me some time to play SH3, because its a game that needs time, not only the loading of it. For me Sh3 is not a game for a quicky. So, when I take me my time to play Sh3 i use to read something along the loading-times and the x128-cruise pontius

01-20-07, 06:45 PM	#14
bigboywooly Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 10,151 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Not sure how large Iambecomes pack has got But yes all extra units will impact on loading times Not so much memory wise as the units in view wont be increased just a bigger variety when you come across a convoy etc Already there is the Norfolk and the Repulse as well as Sergs merc mod 2 that are new since GWX released Who knows what else may appear Plus what anyone in GWX is building too __________________ My mediafire page http://www.mediafire.com/?11eoq19bq9r41

01-20-07, 10:57 PM	#15
GT182 Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: New Castle of Delaware Posts: 3,231 Downloads: 658 Uploads: 0	Just finished my 5th GWX patrol and timed the loading when I started from my last save. Which was submerged and in attack position on a lagre enemy convoy where 95% of all the ships could be seen. This I would think should have caused a long load due to all that had to spawn. Weather was clear. SHIII's initial loading was 56 seconds. Career loading was 1 min. 55 seconds. Not too long tho it seemed so. This is with a P4 3.2E CPU with 2 gigs of DDR 400 RAM, and a fresh defrag had been done. Hope it helps for a comparison. __________________ Gary No Borders, No Language, No Culture =s No Country I'm a Deplorable, and proud of it.