Massive Price Drop!

[Coldcall]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I wonder how much impact there is on the aspect that there are some really fanatical history buffs and submarine-loving devs in Bucharest.... You know what I mean? If the guys in Ubi Romania that are passionate about submarine warfare were not around, would Ubi have made SH3, 4, 5 ? Or, did those games, especially SH4 and 5, see the light of day mainly because Ubisoft knows they have a valuable resource and decided to utilize it? I imagine there is a big fixed cost in getting educated about the millions of historical details a sub simulation like SH3-5, and now that the FC has been invested, Ubi thinks they should keep it invested....

Just a thought.....

I think that is very likely the truth of the matter. Someone in Romania clearly loves making subsims (and is bloody good at it) and i think their talent is being wasted working for Ubi.

I feel sorry for that dev team because if they are emotionally attached to the subsim genre then they must be at wits end with how the release and post-rlease has been handled.

You know this so reminds me of how music publishers treat their artists and why companies like EMI are today on their last legs.

Time for devs to start removing the chains that bind them.

[Nordmann]

Originally Posted by Coldcall

I bought the game for full retail and i still think its worth it (even with all the problems), so yeah at £12 its an absolute steal. Of course that is if one is sort of obsessed by submarine sims like US :-)

That was what I thought, I guess I'll find out soon enough.

Originally Posted by Coldcall

But frankly its an insult to the devs who clearly poured hours and sweat into the game that their work is already being offed at more than 50% price reduction just because Ubi's insitence on the DRM and releasing it early.

Well, only Amazon have lowered their prices thus far, so it may not be all that widespread. I've been buying games from them for 6 years for this very reason, they are extremely reasonable. Whether or not anyone else will reduce SH5 and AC2 remains to be seen.

[Coldcall]

Originally Posted by Nordmann

That was what I thought, I guess I'll find out soon enough.

Well, only Amazon have lowered their prices thus far, so it may not be all that widespread. I've been buying games from them for 6 years for this very reason, they are extremely reasonable. Whether or not anyone else will reduce SH5 and AC2 remains to be seen.

Ya Play.com is still selling it a near full retail, but it wont last because everyone will buy at Amazon if they dont lower the price. Its almost 50% less at Amazon, crazy.

You know, though i've criticised SH5 (release) heavily, i still think its a work of art. Im on it 4 or 5 hours per day, and not bored yet even with the catalogue of issues. I can only imagine how great SH5 would have been, had it been treated with the respect it deserves and released much more finnished and non-buggy.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Coldcall

If you are correct with that figure then that blows my mind, because 200,000 sales at $50 per sale is $10million. Ubisoft would have a great margin in that case and the fact they complain is unbeleivable. It also indicates the blatant profiteering they have engaged in by releasing these games early. There was clearly no need as the profit marguin was huge. They could have simply taken 2 more months to QA the game. At the rates you menntioned that would have cost them an extra few tens of thousands, nothing compared to the ROI.

I dont think its such an easy calculation. Most of Ubisoft's sales are to retailers who negotiate a price based on their network and the potential sales, so I would say a average sales price by Ubi between say $15-25 may make more sense. Perhaps more on the lower end, since some retailers seem to already be dumping their stocks. Since some retailers seem to be accepting returns with no hassle, I presume they also have a deal to get a refund from Ubi.

Sales of sh3 were around 200,000, sales of sh4 were around 100,000 total. If sales of SH5 are only as high as, say sh4, which seems a reasonable assumption. We have gross revenues of $1,500,000 to $2,500,000. From that you have to detect salary, marketing and other costs at Ubi corporate, so even if they only paid say 500k to Ubi Romania, we are still not talking about a huge profit.

When you look at it this way, it also shows why Ubi acts the way they do. The keep the development cost and time to a minimum to be certain to turn a profit.

Obviously if they had more sales, they could afford to spend more money on it.

[jdkbph]

Originally Posted by Coldcall

If you are correct with that figure then that blows my mind, because 200,000 sales at $50 per sale is $10million.

Well, discounting the recent proce drop, even at $50 per copy you have to understand that includes not only development costs but marketing, packaging, distribution, retail mark-ups, etc., etc..

And also keep in mind that the question isn't so much whether or not the game makes money, but how much money does it make relative to other, more mainstream projects? Games like Assassin's Creed 2, Prince of Persia, and their ilk, most likely yield a much higher return on investment of those same resources.

JD

[Jonin]

Still showing 49$ for Amazon in the US. I'm not buying it because of the DRM, but if it drops down low enough, I may give it a shot. If they'd just drop that DRM, I'd go out and get it today.

[Nordmann]

Originally Posted by Jonin

Still showing 49$ for Amazon in the US. I'm not buying it because of the DRM, but if it drops down low enough, I may give it a shot. If they'd just drop that DRM, I'd go out and get it today.

Indeed, give it some time, the US Amazon tends to be somewhat slow to catch on. I don't know what it is about the States, but you always seem to get hit with higher prices for games than here in the UK, at least in my experience. Tax perhaps?

[TDK1044]

[QUOTE=Neal Stevens;1334968]I automatically assume this is directed to me (and that's fine), but I do want to point out that I have always maintained that we should be nice to any publisher that makes a decent submarine game, not only Ubisoft. And by "be nice", of course no one means "unconditional love". But we should try not to adopt a hostile, unreasonable attitude. We should separate ourselves as subsim enthusiasts from the militant consumers that judge everything purely on the weight of their hard earned money© It is possible to be critical AND nice....

I like to "be nice" to everyone!

(When possible). [QUOTE]

No, not at all, Neal. You have a unique position in your relationship with Ubisoft and I hold you in the highest regard. I was referring to members here who are so desparate to have any kind of sub sim, that they will turn a blind eye to just about everything in order to get the new game in any condition Ubisoft releases it in.

If the modders here and elsewhere refused to touch SH5 at all, what kind of game would we have? Another buggy mess that's barely playable and not even accessible a lot of the time.

I think that anyone who, knowing Ubisoft's history, and knowing that this was a DRM game targeted at the casual gamer, who still paid $49 or more for it, belongs in a padded cell!

[Nordmann]

Originally Posted by TDK1044

If the modders here and elsewhere refused to touch SH5 at all, what kind of game would we have? Another buggy mess that's barely playable and not even accessible a lot of the time.

Yes, rather like SH3 and 4 on release, and people still play those games.

Originally Posted by TDK1044

I think that anyone who, knowing Ubisoft's history, and knowing that this was a DRM game targeted at the casual gamer, who still paid $49 or more for it, belongs in a padded cell!

Well, I wouldn't pay full price for it, and I haven't. I tend to avoid anything above £20, unless it's really worth the price tag, which most are not. Still, it seems that the national mental health facilities are going to be very busy this month!

[Coldcall]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

I dont think its such an easy calculation. Most of Ubisoft's sales are to retailers who negotiate a price based on their network and the potential sales, so I would say a average sales price by Ubi between say $15-25 may make more sense. Perhaps more on the lower end, since some retailers seem to already be dumping their stocks. Since some retailers seem to be accepting returns with no hassle, I presume they also have a deal to get a refund from Ubi.

Sales of sh3 were around 200,000, sales of sh4 were around 100,000 total. If sales of SH5 are only as high as, say sh4, which seems a reasonable assumption. We have gross revenues of $1,500,000 to $2,500,000. From that you have to detect salary, marketing and other costs at Ubi corporate, so even if they only paid say 500k to Ubi Romania, we are still not talking about a huge profit.

When you look at it this way, it also shows why Ubi acts the way they do. The keep the development cost and time to a minimum to be certain to turn a profit.

Obviously if they had more sales, they could afford to spend more money on it.

Absolutely, the figures are very fluid in that we dont know exactly what the average per copy sale is when taking into account all costs, promotions etc..

But even worst case scenario they are making money even on the lesser 100,000 estimate. And if SH4 only sold 100,000 then clearly it made them money because they returned 2/3 years after with this release.

Anyways, my point being, any suitably committed and *experienced* dev team could produce a profit making subsim. And further if it was less concerned about impatient demands from its corproate paymasters it would likely release a less buggy initial product. QA could be almost totally outsourced to a group of subsimmers who would put the game through its paces better than any internal qa teams.

Another thing i was wondering is what development project methodology thise guys are using in Romania. If they switched to an Agile approach you sort of betatest on the hoof incrementally as the software sort of evolves. Very darwinian approach to software dev. Im not a techiwe but i sel Agile consultancy services to corp devlopment teams working on B2b applications. Software devloped with Agile techniques instead of the old Prince 2 PPMs, are way more robust even at beta stage before qa testing on finalised build.

Anyways would love to see a break way occur just because even if Ubi continue doing a SH series, they need some competition and we will end up with a bettr subsim from one or the others.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Coldcall

Time for devs to start removing the chains that bind them.

For that to happen, they would have to go independent. And where would the money comes from? (not being sarcastic, just wondering).

[Nordmann]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

For that to happen, they would have to go independent. And where would the money comes from? (not being sarcastic, just wondering).

Yes, exactly. Even indie companies tend to go with a publisher if they want their game to reach a wider audience. It's a necessary evil.

[Coldcall]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

For that to happen, they would have to go independent. And where would the money comes from? (not being sarcastic, just wondering).

There is plenty of funding out there for a well put together pitch, led by a dev team that has a track record. Thats the key. I on my own could not go to a VC and say i have a great idea etc....However with a project lead from SH5 it would be a total walk in the park, the figures would just need to be right. If as one poster said Ubi merely put a few hundred thousand euros into development then that is small change to an investor.

Not being funny but i could probably scrape that together on my own :-)

I was thinking you need atleast a million quid or so, but apprently that doesnt seem to be the case.

Of course marketing and promotions costs money too, but with communties like subsim, simhq. combatsim, and maybe some good reviews (that would be a first :-) one can be creative these days and not spend the sort of money EA and Ubi do on marketing. Actually from what Ive heard Ubi totally negelected US marketing for SH5 simply so im not sure they are spending that much on marketing SH5 anyway.

Im not saying one can wave a wand and all this is easy, but dedicated folks, who have the experience could do this if they were determined. Gaming is a growing industry and alot of VC houses who use to lend money for financial type investments are now looking at other avenues of investment.

[Bilge_Rat]

Another option would be to get in bed with the devil and make a deal with Ubisoft. SH5 has everything we need to create a ultra-realistic subsim and it is always easier to build on existing code than start from scratch.

Say a new company employing talented modders enters into a joint venture with Ubi to turn SH5 into a more hardcore sim and sell it as a new product, with profits to be split.

That approach has been successful in the past with, for example, "Falcon 4: Allied Force" and "War in the Pacific: Admiral's edition". In both cases, modders who had been working on the games for free approached the software owner and worked out a deal.

I would have no problem forking over another $50 for SH5:Hardcore edition.

[Coldcall]

so why's everyone scared of going independent? I did so years ago, walked out of my job and started my own business. I had to overcome an inherent fear of failure to do it, but once i did it there was no turning back. Yes, as he says in Dune, "fear is the killer". Fear will stop you doing many things in life you will one day regret not having tried

Im not trying to make this some sort of lifechanging speech but for gawds sakes, humanity is built upon the actions of small groups and indiviauls, not large statist or corproate entities. Microsoft, Google all started a small independents. Look at them today.

Anways i dont understand why anyone chooses to work for someone else as in being employed by them, if they have the skills that are valuable then they can go and do it on their own, by their own set of principles.

In the case of SH5. If thats the same group of devs doing the Sh titles then im really surpsied they havent flown the coop. Its not them who need Ubi, its Ubi who needs them.

What they cant develop the game but in a certified Ubisoft office? They are satisified that Ubi will take the majority of profit, skim it off the top and pay the dev team like if they were plumbers? My view is that the art and work that has gone into SH series is by rights of natural justice the property of the devs and artists.

The music industry for many years treated music artists with the same sort of, we own all the rights crap, and if you look at EA and Ubi today they have done the same thing. Publishers owning all rights including release decisions about the work created by others.

And yes im a capitalist :-)