SEA POWER - Naval Combat in the Missile Age

[ET2SN]

Well, yeah. But..

As I understand it, Sea Power is supposed to offer high fidelity assets for accurate scenarios from the late 1940's to the end of the Cold War. High Fidelity meaning accurate platforms and weps.

So, why bother with the Wunder Weapons at all if they didn't exist?

I've seen this before, I still play an "update Mod" for Dangerous Waters where, if you play under the "right" flag, you get some really off-the-wall capabilities.
If you want play the Mod, you have to go in knowing its going to be extremely challenging if you're looking for accuracy, it just won't be very realistic.

If I have the ability to arm my frigates with a hypersonic cruise missile in the 1950's, what's the point? More important, if I already have that option, I'll probably need to use it.

Anyway, its way to early to rant about it. We'll see what drops in November.

[Julhelm]

Originally Posted by ET2SN

My YouTube algorithm is full of early access vids of the Dev Build.

Its defiantly "Fleet Command II" with some Cold Waters accents, which isn't a bad thing BUT FC had its limitations in terms of immersion.
One thing I keep noticing is "All Hail Our Gallant Soviet Overlords (unless you're an imperialist swine)".

Meaning, in the Dev version, guess which side is OP?
There are Soviet CV's which were never built along with several aircraft that never flew, only one or two were ever built, or were only mentioned as "on the drawing boards".

Now, I can understand this if it was still 2020. Russian gamers like playing Russian/Soviet platforms and there were a LOT of them to buy the game.
Its now 2024 and things have changed.

So, it looks like it should be a very good "on the fly" strategy game with great visuals. A lot of its success will come down to the Mission Editor where you can plan out and then fine tune the actual combat, keeping in mind that you are playing as an Admiral and you're not getting your hands dirty.

If you enjoy pulling the trigger, Sea Power probably isn't for you.
The content creators should have a field day with it once it gets released in November. I'm looking forward to watching some historic battles and some "what if" scenarios. Does that mean I'll buy it? Probably not, its not my type of game, neither was Fleet Command.

There is no bias in the game whatsoever, neither to the east nor the west. We go with published data from trusted sources, but we do have the most accurate implementation of Soviet anti-ship missiles in any game so far, which we are proud of.

Whatever paper units exist in the game are included by us because:

- We find them interesting designs
- It's a simulation, so what-if units can be put into the game and see how they would have performed
- It allows to game out historical what-ifs

You don't have to use them if you don't want to, and they won't show up in historical campaigns or scenarios, either. They're simply there to increase the sandbox potential.

[Wiz33]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

There is no bias in the game whatsoever, neither to the east nor the west. We go with published data from trusted sources, but we do have the most accurate implementation of Soviet anti-ship missiles in any game so far, which we are proud of.

Whatever paper units exist in the game are included by us because:

- We find them interesting designs
- It's a simulation, so what-if units can be put into the game and see how they would have performed
- It allows to game out historical what-ifs

You don't have to use them if you don't want to, and they won't show up in historical campaigns or scenarios, either. They're simply there to increase the sandbox potential.

But do they actually work as demonstrated in the recent conflict. A lot of claims on Soviet era weapons are totally overhyped.. Even Old Hawk missile that stopped receiving updates in the 90s seems to be out performing current Russian equipments.

[Aktungbby]

Wiz33!... resurfaced after a 2-year 'silent run'!

[Wiz33]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

Wiz33!... resurfaced after a 2-year 'silent run'!

Really not much going on on the the modern naval front for a while. Now that Sea Power have a release date. I'm back.

[Julhelm]

Originally Posted by Wiz33

But do they actually work as demonstrated in the recent conflict. A lot of claims on Soviet era weapons are totally overhyped.. Even Old Hawk missile that stopped receiving updates in the 90s seems to be out performing current Russian equipments.

Current Russia is not the USSR of the Cold War. Certainly Soviet-origin air defence systems have always been effective, except in conflicts like Allied Force where the US was able to gain air superiority and perform DEAD uncontested. They are certainly effective in the current conflict, to the point where neither side can reliably conduct air ops near the frontline.


People take one event like the Moskva sinking and extrapolate to the extreme from that. We could do the same with the Sheffield, the Coventry or the Stark, but noone ever seems to make the argument western equipment is useless because these ships were caught unaware.

[ET2SN]

So, we'll be seeing the short nosed version of the F-111 for carrier ops?

[Wiz33]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

Current Russia is not the USSR of the Cold War. Certainly Soviet-origin air defence systems have always been effective, except in conflicts like Allied Force where the US was able to gain air superiority and perform DEAD uncontested. They are certainly effective in the current conflict, to the point where neither side can reliably conduct air ops near the frontline.


People take one event like the Moskva sinking and extrapolate to the extreme from that. We could do the same with the Sheffield, the Coventry or the Stark, but noone ever seems to make the argument western equipment is useless because these ships were caught unaware.

I don't have as much contact with the people in the industry/field now but I was told that thing have not improve much.

Back in the days of the cold war when my company actually does Mil-spec contracts. We worked for Gould Inc which build the Mk48, FMC which build the M2 and other projects some of those were so highly classified that we were not even given the program name at the time (one of those which turns out to be parts for the B2). What I can tell you is that every piece of equipment the US and allies have acquired since the fall of the USSR have underperform to the published spec. This does not even cover the poor workmanship on the equipment acquire form East Germany and other former Soviet states. We're talking about upward of 20% failure rates. Examples of which includes the 125mm APFSDS tank main gun round where 30% of the Tungsten Penetrators shattered upon impact and things like all the missile launch failure video you see on the web is more the norm than the exception.

[Tucker]

Have they released any info on how the campaign will play?

I know it's going to be a dynamic campaign, but I mean will you be controlling all the naval assets in a theater, or will the campaign allow for less grand strategy control? Like say controlling a single ship/submarine or a battle group/task force.

I would love to see essentially an updated Cold Waters campaign where you are in control of an individual unit or battlegroup/task force in a larger theater. But unlike Cold Waters where it's your sub against the entire Northern and Baltic Fleets, you have AI allied units operating around you.

[Oubaas]

I'm planning to buy it upon release. Being Early Access, I won't expect it to be perfect out of the box. And as long as they don't show up in historical scenarios where they would be inappropriate, I like the inclusion of, "what-if" units, prototypes, etcetera.

As for Soviet and Russian military equipment, the proof is in the pudding. And a brief review of world military history suggests that an awful lot of the disparagement may be based on hooyah propaganda. I spent many years in uniform, with the Soviets as my primary adversaries. I did not see any of the Keystone Cops ineptitude that is typically attributed to them in the west.

[havocsquad]

With the real likelihood of Sea Power being a complete game that is full successor to build upon what Janes Fleet Command offered primarily and also Harpoon to an extent, I now have considered coming out of retirement if the game delivers what it should.

One such requirement that hopefully will be added is stable multiplayer play for player competition and for cooperative play. Lets face it, there are definite limits to how much AI you can cram into a game to deal with all the "possibilities".

If you want less boring gameplay, multiplayer competition is the key. Players need to be properly informed that time compression on multiplayer is likely a firm no-go.

Regarding the quoted message below from Badger343rd, replies like this seem to point a problem that has been around for quite some time in the modern naval sim gaming genre.

Either it is a lack of understanding the scope of the game being real time strategy or that many who just prefer 688i H/K, Sub Command, or Dangerous waters really hate doing any significant amount of micromanaging other units that is present in real time strategy games.

There were a lot of 688i H/K & Sub Command players who initially picked up Janes Fleet Command but became dis-interested in it rather quickly, even after the NWP mod made things a lot better.

I noticed that because I used to be the department commander in charge of Janes Fleet Command in the online Seawolves multiplayer league/fleet and player retention was difficult to maintain for new ones.

It looks like Seawolves virtual fleet is no more. Probably a mix of direct network connections being very difficult for some and drying up demand for modern naval strategy sims for the past 10 to 15 years.

Originally Posted by Badger343rd

Lemme get this straight...no real weapon management ie guidance parameters for torps and the like...no ident methods like sonar profiles...no detection interfaces ie radar screens etc to manipulate??? Could it get anymore boring??? This looks like a pass for me. I expected alot more. A dangerous waters a la 2024 if you will. Looks like you just tell the AI where to go and let it do the work??

[Aktungbby]

havocsquad! after 18.25 years' 'silent running"??!!

[havocsquad]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

havocsquad! after 18.25 years' 'silent running"??!!

You should have been a sportscaster doing play by play analysis on some of the multiplayer Fleet Command player vs player matches I played with some of the best in the world.

I definitely did a lot of sneaky/stealthy but fair tactics that won me quite a few matches. I also got my fair share of bruises and bad days.

[ET2SN]

So, I've got my first dumb question.

I realize that what we've been seeing on the current vids is, essentially, the Beta form of the game which releases next month.

I see platforms sinking ships, I see planes getting shot down and the crew ejecting. It looks great.

What I'm not seeing is SAR.

It could add a dimension to the game play. At what point do you send a unit to pick up the poor sod's who are trying to swim? Or, is that just assumed to happen after the game is over?

In a campaign or single battle, picking up crewmen on your side might become decisive, likewise, plucking a senior officer out of the water that you were fighting against could provide some good Intel.

[havocsquad]

Originally Posted by ET2SN

So, I've got my first dumb question.

I realize that what we've been seeing on the current vids is, essentially, the Beta form of the game which releases next month.

I see platforms sinking ships, I see planes getting shot down and the crew ejecting. It looks great.

What I'm not seeing is SAR.

It could add a dimension to the game play. At what point do you send a unit to pick up the poor sod's who are trying to swim? Or, is that just assumed to happen after the game is over?

In a campaign or single battle, picking up crewmen on your side might become decisive, likewise, plucking a senior officer out of the water that you were fighting against could provide some good Intel.

Right now, the developers got a lot of things higher in priority at this time to focus on, that includes trying to fit in additions in the roadmap/plan that add high amount of value in the game.

Development time and manpower is not infinite. While constructive feedback from others is very important, I feel that this falls to being one of the lowest numbers in the "maybe" category for additions.

First, such units being rescued or prevented from being rescued need to be programmed in the game to be indestructible. It's too easy to fail or win if they can be clobbered like in Janes/SCS Fleet Command.

Second, it's somewhat what might already be in the game. Reach coordinates: ##:##:## N, ##:##:## E before the enemy in a ship or sub. Pretend pilot is there, get intel. Intel reveals boomer sub patrol region. Sink with ASW plane, mission done.

Quick control of individual unit's weapons and quick keys for depth and speed, good mechanics, stable play, save game compatibility, dynamic campaign functional, and last but hopefully not least important is multiplayer support. These are what I emphasize every time there is a discussion on what is most important on the official Sea Power Microprose discord channel.