sh5 pdf campaign overview here

[ichso]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

OK.. fine.. I'll bite.

Too many people in this community, are so enthralled with the uboat romance, they are completely out of touch with historical perspective.

I'll give 3 quick examples.

1.) A patrol report someone wrote about U-181 during a wolves of war campaign some years ago. This user wrote in such a context that they were PROUDLY and DEFIANTLY flying the swaztika to the end.

2.) Another user putting the smiling happy german captain with the nazi flag superimposed in the background.

3.) another user posting a pic like this:
http://yoshi.backupot.com/Silent%20H...d%20Statue.png

So enthralled with the uboat romance, that the meaning behind that symbol has been completely erased. Nevermind the regieme, nor the what transpired in the war, nor the allied men, killed in the atlantic. No, instead just look at these poor uboat men in their epic struggle, these are the good guys!

The way people lament about them, you'd swear people wish they had won! And if you can change the outcome of the war in this dynamic campaign, now they finally have that chance. This is also the type of schitt neo nazi's, and any others who idolize the 3rd reich would jump at.

Don't get me wrong, theres nothing wrong with a Uboat sim, in and of itself, but too many people here take it entirely too far. I played SH3 for a few years, and i always tried to be mindful of the regieme behind it all. And here's a confesson. I, like other uboat fans, had at one point lost perspective. I realized that, when one day, towards the end of a career game, i found myself looking at the swaztika as a flag of a friendly nation. That bothered me alot, and it made me realize just how out of touch with reality this uboat romance is.

SO yea, if you can change the outcome of the war, i have problems with that on many levels.

I felt practically the same about this.

If you then read a sentence as in the pdf:

Originally Posted by SH5 Campaign

Do you have any idea how "your" world will look like in May '43 ?

I know that they're not referring to the world outside of military here but still, this doesn't sound right at all.

[onelifecrisis]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

No one stated that the uboat did nothing. Altering the outcome of the war, win/lose, is the issue. I'm all for events changing within my uboat world but not the entire world. Sure, a change of shipping lanes because my presence in a particular part of the ocean is welcomed. I sunk an entire convoy so a large battle never took place as a result is ok. Winning the war or alternate reality does not work for me.

"I sunk an entire convoy so a large battle never took place" is an "alternate reality".

[Safe-Keeper]

only 250 convoys?

You do realize they mean 250 convoy routes.

[Iron Budokan]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

You do realize they mean 250 convoy routes.

Do they actually say 'Convoy routes" or are we supposed to interpret that? I don't remember reading 250 convoy routes, but I certainly may be mistaken.

[bigboywooly]

Originally Posted by Iron Budokan

Do they actually say 'Convoy routes" or are we supposed to interpret that? I don't remember reading 250 convoy routes, but I certainly may be mistaken.

If its anything like previus SHs will probably have around 30 diff convoy routes with the convoy lasting for a period of around 6 months
Give or take

Be nice to think of 250 convoy routes but think a bit too much to hope for

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

"I sunk an entire convoy so a large battle never took place" is an "alternate reality".

Yes, but not a historical reality. Historically the German lost. Historically the uboat up to 1943 played a large roll. Anything other than that is not reality. Looking to win the war via the game play is an alternate reality. I do not care if an entire convoy was sunk. Alternate or not, it does not change history in the real sense...if that make sense At any rate, changing the game to have the Germans win is not what I'm looking for. For others perhaps. Just my thoughts on the matter.

[elanaiba]

One thing I can say. Whatever you do in the game, it will not change the CURRENT REALITY THAT SURROUNDS US.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by elanaiba

What you will be able to change or not in the game, you will see. What we are trying to do is give the player a believable context to his actions.

I have 2 things to say about dynamic campaigns in the context of games placed in World War 2 - in other words "known history".

The first one is this - consider the aspect of the victorious allies. Would I be playing the good guys (US Submarines in Pacific for example), should they win no matter what?

If I were the Swordfish pilot hitting the Bismarck, should history continue unaltered if I miss my shot? Would that be believable?

Or substitute yourself for this man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_David_Wanklyn. If I don't live up to his actions, should that not matter?

The second aspect is this:

If the consequences of my actions - regardless of the role I play in the game - do not matter, why do I bother playing my part?

We aim to teach players history by showing the REASONS and the possible CONSEQUENCES for engagements.

Take the example of the Bismarck. That ship was not just cruising to serve as target practice for the Royal Navy. They were trying to break out in the Atlantic and wreak havoc on British Trade. Would their success have mattered to any extent?

Good points! I like your idea behind what you worked to achieve. I can go for changes in your uboat world that affect you the skipper and crew but affect the utlimate outcome of the war? Not so much. Perhaps it was a good idea to stop in 43.

[Mikhayl]

If the game is well balanced and you play with all realism settings at 100%, you should never be able to sink an entire convoy or task force and so the point will be moot. I hope it will be that way.

If you sink one or two ships in a convoy of 20, the only effect you will have is to get more escorts on your back. The net effect of 2 ships lost will be minimal in the overall picture. So you don't change the outcome of the war, but things around you move a tad to build the feeling that you're part of the war, not just an outside element as in SH3/4.

In SH3 you can sink several million tons, in a dynamic environment that would be very problematic. If SH5 is made in such a way that you can't expect "Ace" tonnage all the time, then it's going to be a thrill as you'll actually struggle to have any influence to begin with, and any effect you do have will be very rewarding.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by elanaiba

One thing I can say. Whatever you do in the game, it will not change the CURRENT REALITY THAT SURROUNDS US.

[elanaiba]

http://www.usmm.org/capacity.html

[bigboywooly]

Originally Posted by elanaiba

One thing I can say. Whatever you do in the game, it will not change the CURRENT REALITY THAT SURROUNDS US.

Wells thats pretty obvious as a game altering the course of history has no bearing on real life now
Esp a game set 60 odd yrs ago

Games such as the total war series allow you to alter the course of known history all the time
Changes nothing now
Just a game after all
As is SH5
A game not a sim

[FIREWALL]

I would like to thank you elanaiba for dropping by and talking to us.

[MercurySeven]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

I would like to thank you elanaiba for dropping by and talking to us.

+1

Oh, and I have to admit to be (probably) wrong about my earlier assumptions on how hard it will be to (me: impossible) to put a real dent in the outcome of the war. At least the SH5 page suggests under "Campaign" that

The most important supply routes pass through the North Atlantic. Coming from Nova Scotia or Gibraltar, they reach England through South Western Approaches. These supplies allow the British to wage war against Germany. Strong and in high numbers, the British can’t go down in one swift blow, but without supplies, their war effort will be diminished, their people’s will tested and it will be only a matter of time until they’ll break down.

Soooooo ... sounds like it will be at least POSSIBLE to have Britain surrender. Or thats just another piece of marketing rpg.

Well, regarding the campaign I personally am open for such new ideas as long as they are not the focus of the game and are pretty hard to accomplish. I draw a strict line between the game and the reality and can live with such a thing. Other games (especially RTS titles) have done similar approaches and I was fine with them as well. However, I do understand that this is a bit ... delicate so I would not be surprised to find a Mod that removes such alterations once SH5 has hit the shelves. (And yes, I hope that such Mods will be possible)

[subsimlee]

Truth is, when any of us engage as skipper in a U-boat sim, we are checking reality at the door.........