sh5 pdf campaign overview here

Ducimus · 02-02-10, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

They need to clear this up. Tho I doubt their makeing a Fantasy subsim.

OK.. fine.. I'll bite.

Too many people in this community, are so enthralled with the uboat romance, they are completely out of touch with historical perspective.

I'll give 3 quick examples.

1.) A patrol report someone wrote about U-181 during a wolves of war campaign some years ago. This user wrote in such a context that they were PROUDLY and DEFIANTLY flying the swaztika to the end.

2.) Another user putting the smiling happy german captain with the nazi flag superimposed in the background.

3.) another user posting a pic like this:
http://yoshi.backupot.com/Silent%20H...d%20Statue.png

So enthralled with the uboat romance, that the meaning behind that symbol has been completely erased. Nevermind the regieme, nor the what transpired in the war, nor the allied men, killed in the atlantic. No, instead just look at these poor uboat men in their epic struggle, these are the good guys!

The way people lament about them, you'd swear people wish they had won! And if you can change the outcome of the war in this dynamic campaign, now they finally have that chance. This is also the type of schitt neo nazi's, and any others who idolize the 3rd reich would jump at.

Don't get me wrong, theres nothing wrong with a Uboat sim, in and of itself, but too many people here take it entirely too far. I played SH3 for a few years, and i always tried to be mindful of the regieme behind it all. And here's a confesson. I, like other uboat fans, had at one point lost perspective. I realized that, when one day, towards the end of a career game, i found myself looking at the swaztika as a flag of a friendly nation. That bothered me alot, and it made me realize just how out of touch with reality this uboat romance is.

SO yea, if you can change the outcome of the war, i have problems with that on many levels.

The Enigma · 02-02-10, 04:36 PM

It would have been a good thing if, at the end of a career, a short
resume was displayed what horror the Nazi's have caused.

That would put you back into reality again.

FIREWALL · 02-02-10, 04:43 PM

Simply, I want it historical. Fantasy can be modded in by a users own taste which, has been done on past sub sims.

onelifecrisis · 02-02-10, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

If thats true, i have problems with that on a multiple levels. I'll bite my lip and stop there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Budokan

Wow. That's just....wow.

I'm speechless if this is true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Sorry, I find the 'change the war with a uboat' a bit weird. Are we re-writing history via a game?

So you guys think that the U-boats made no difference? That if Germany had not sent any of them to war then everything would have panned out exactly the same anyway? Wow. Why on earth would you even be interested in playing a game that simulates the command of such useless vessels?

THE_MASK · 02-02-10, 05:38 PM

Hasnt anyone ever modded a campaign before . If they drop the DRM i dont see a problem in modding it .

Bubblehead1980 · 02-03-10, 05:04 AM

As usual, Ducimus said basically what I was thinking

utops · 02-02-10, 05:55 PM

I just want to survive and take credit for sunken tonage , that is all for me when i thinking about,some fiction it is not a problem in eg. if i get lucky to sink main unit of the home fleet , that unit is off.
So that unit is not longer operational and that impact on the campaign.
In future this particural ship do not acomplish mission. Some event because of this is diffirent and change a little shape of the frontline,but whole war? This is just ridiculous, but good material for those epic heroes wannabe rpg fans.

JU_88 · 02-02-10, 06:14 PM

Hypothetical question for the 'historical' purists here...

Senario:
Your are playing SH3 and HMS Nelson passes in front of your scope
What do you do?

1) Attack as did the commander of U-31 (but! if you sink her, that event is 100% fantasy, Nelson was never sunk!.)

2) Ignore her for the sake of historical accuracy. (not what a real Uboat commander would have done under the circumstances)

The point is that history happened one way only and it cannot be undone, in a sandbox game with DYNAMIC campaign on the hand...
Do you see where Im going with this?
A Historically accurate computer game is not actually possible - unless you remove the players free will.
SH5 responds to that 'free will' is that a crime?

Nisgeis · 02-02-10, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The General

This won't be the first time that has a happened. For just one example; Phillip K. Dick wrote a story about an alternative reality where The Axis powers won WWII.

Yes, The Man in the High Castle. In that book though, it was clearly pointed out that they were living in the 'wrong' reality and things should not have turned out that way. It also talked about the extermination of the Jews, so was not a fun thing to try to role play with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JU_88

Hypothetical question for the history purists here...

Senario:
Your are playing SH3 and HMS Nelson passes in front of your scope
What do you do?

1) Attack as did the commander of U-31 (but! if you sink her, that event is 100% fantasy, Nelson was never sunk!.)

2) Ignore her for the sake of historical accuracy. (not what a real Uboat commander would have done under the circumstances)

The point is History happened one way and it cannot be undone, in a sandbox game with DYNAMIC campaign on the hand...

Do you see where Im going with this?

Yes I do see, but that's not what people are complaining about. They are not complaining that they can sink ships that historically were never attacked by U-Boat. To make that stick, you'd have to stick rigidly to the original U-boats patrol, never deviating from it, including during attacks.

What some people are concerned about is that people can sail out, sink 2 million tons of shipping in a week with their deck gun in pew pew fashion and then RTB, get a little message saying how they have turned the tide and thinking 'Wow! I could have won the war for the Nazis! How tragic I wasn't born back then.'.

Other people are complaing that as a single instrument, the U-boats whilst being very effective initially, once counter measures were put in place, they ceased to be as potent and effective as they once were. Having a single captain (the player) being responsible for turning the tide of the war is... quite a stretch, unless tonnage figures are going to be pew pew excessive.

Iron Budokan · 02-02-10, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

So you guys think that the U-boats made no difference? That if Germany had not sent any of them to war then everything would have panned out exactly the same anyway? Wow. Why on earth would you even be interested in playing a game that simulates the command of such useless vessels?

Yes, Uboats had a severe economic impact on the Allies. History has proven this to be true.

NO, they didn't win the war. When a game has you winning the war, or affecting huge economic and materiel outcomes that are historically innaccurate, then it ceases to become a simulation and becomes a childish, cartoonish, arcade.

That's the difference.

AVGWarhawk · 02-02-10, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

So you guys think that the U-boats made no difference? That if Germany had not sent any of them to war then everything would have panned out exactly the same anyway? Wow. Why on earth would you even be interested in playing a game that simulates the command of such useless vessels?

No one stated that the uboat did nothing. Altering the outcome of the war, win/lose, is the issue. I'm all for events changing within my uboat world but not the entire world. Sure, a change of shipping lanes because my presence in a particular part of the ocean is welcomed. I sunk an entire convoy so a large battle never took place as a result is ok. Winning the war or alternate reality does not work for me.

onelifecrisis · 02-03-10, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

No one stated that the uboat did nothing. Altering the outcome of the war, win/lose, is the issue. I'm all for events changing within my uboat world but not the entire world. Sure, a change of shipping lanes because my presence in a particular part of the ocean is welcomed. I sunk an entire convoy so a large battle never took place as a result is ok. Winning the war or alternate reality does not work for me.

"I sunk an entire convoy so a large battle never took place" is an "alternate reality".

Safe-Keeper · 02-03-10, 01:47 PM

Quote:

only 250 convoys?

You do realize they mean 250 convoy routes.

AVGWarhawk · 02-03-10, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

"I sunk an entire convoy so a large battle never took place" is an "alternate reality".

Yes, but not a historical reality. Historically the German lost. Historically the uboat up to 1943 played a large roll. Anything other than that is not reality. Looking to win the war via the game play is an alternate reality. I do not care if an entire convoy was sunk. Alternate or not, it does not change history in the real sense...if that make sense

At any rate, changing the game to have the Germans win is not what I'm looking for. For others perhaps. Just my thoughts on the matter.

JU_88 · 02-02-10, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

Simply, I want it historical. Fantasy can be modded in by a users own taste which, has been done on past sub sims.

Well i my impression is that the devs are talking about relativly minor alterations to the Battle of the Atlantic- not a total re-write of WW2 history.

You got to apprieciate that some events during of the Battle of atlantic were down to chance.
In SH3, you could potentially 'save the Bismark' but game thinks nothing of it. Were you to do that in SH5, maybe the Bismark would be used in another battle?
IMO Its no so far fetched that one U-boat can make a difference in this way, it potentially can if its in the right place at the right time.

WW2 has already played out and history is cast in stone, now how can you play that out in a sandbox game like silent hunter 5? 100% historical accucuracy is not really compatible with 'computer game' format in this way.

Players did unhistorical things in SH3, like raiding Ports, saving the bismark sinking ships that never got sunk in real life etc.
The only difference it that SH5 acknowledges these acts, where SH3 totally ignored them.
Yet SH3 is somehow deemed superior for it??

So long as we are not led to feel as though the Battle is being won by the Axis by 1943... I really dont see the problem.

02-02-10, 04:36 PM	#2
The Enigma Seer of visions Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Under the surface Posts: 2,315 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	It would have been a good thing if, at the end of a career, a short resume was displayed what horror the Nazi's have caused. That would put you back into reality again. __________________

02-02-10, 04:43 PM	#3
FIREWALL Eternal Patrol Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CATALINA IS. SO . CAL USA Posts: 10,108 Downloads: 511 Uploads: 0	Simply, I want it historical. Fantasy can be modded in by a users own taste which, has been done on past sub sims. __________________ RIP FIREWALL I Play GWX. Silent Hunter Who ???

02-02-10, 06:14 PM	#8
JU_88 Silent Hunter Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: UK Posts: 3,803 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	Hypothetical question for the 'historical' purists here... Senario: Your are playing SH3 and HMS Nelson passes in front of your scope What do you do? 1) Attack as did the commander of U-31 (but! if you sink her, that event is 100% fantasy, Nelson was never sunk!.) 2) Ignore her for the sake of historical accuracy. (not what a real Uboat commander would have done under the circumstances) The point is that history happened one way only and it cannot be undone, in a sandbox game with DYNAMIC campaign on the hand... Do you see where Im going with this? A Historically accurate computer game is not actually possible - unless you remove the players free will. SH5 responds to that 'free will' is that a crime? Last edited by JU_88; 02-02-10 at 06:28 PM.

02-02-10, 05:38 PM	#5
THE_MASK Ace of the deep . Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,226 Downloads: 901 Uploads: 73	Hasnt anyone ever modded a campaign before . If they drop the DRM i dont see a problem in modding it .

02-03-10, 05:04 AM	#6
Bubblehead1980 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida USA Posts: 7,105 Downloads: 605 Uploads: 44	As usual, Ducimus said basically what I was thinking

02-02-10, 05:55 PM	#7
utops Planesman Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Gdańsk,Poland Posts: 197 Downloads: 202 Uploads: 0	I just want to survive and take credit for sunken tonage , that is all for me when i thinking about,some fiction it is not a problem in eg. if i get lucky to sink main unit of the home fleet , that unit is off. So that unit is not longer operational and that impact on the campaign. In future this particural ship do not acomplish mission. Some event because of this is diffirent and change a little shape of the frontline,but whole war? This is just ridiculous, but good material for those epic heroes wannabe rpg fans.