A bunch of questions on aircraft

[gap]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

A bit on a side from this discussion, but I wonder, if the general rule for capital ships in U-Boat infested waters was to sail at high speed and not stop for anything in order not to become an easy target for a torpedo, how do you regularly recover your scout plane?

Is that a question about history or is it relative to SH5?

In the former case I am afraid I have not an answer, but being a protective measure I can imagine that spotters were launched more often in potentially hostile waters than in totally safe conditions, where no enemy was to be met.

Talking more specifically about the game, we should consider that - if no one finds a way to get TDW carrier patch to work - those scout planes would spawn outside rendering range; that is 20 km in stock game, probably more in TWoS. In other words, we would never see a battleship or a cruiser in 'alert state' launching her aircraft just in front of our eyes: we could imagine it to have been deployed long before enemy detection. On the contrary, in early war (before fleet carriers become available in numbers), those little planes would help task forces to be more "aware" of their environment and to better defend themselves.

[vdr1981]

Originally Posted by gap

Anyway, after your suggestion, I will be adding "filler" air groups to fill the possible intervals between an "active" air group and the next one. These air groups will do nothing but spawning one (or whatever is the minimum safe number) unarmed and short-ranged aircraft. Filler groups will also be used at the beginning and/or at the end of the whole air group sequence, in case a base is not active since day one and/or until the last day of the campaign that it will be used on. To keep on with my previous example, after the aforementione changes the cfg file looks like this:

[Unit]
ClassName=RAFNortholt        ;-50087.640000    6186482.280000
3DModelFileName=data/Land/LAB_LargeAirBaseGB/LAB_LargeAirBaseGB
UnitType=406
MaxSpeed=0.000000
MinSpeed=0.000000
Length=1
Width=1

[AirGroup 1]
StartDate=19390801
EndDate=19400617
Squadron1Class=Trainer
Squadron1No=1

[AirGroup 2]
StartDate=19400618
EndDate=19400622
Squadron1Class=FHurricaneMkI    ;No. 1 Sqn. RAF (fighter squadron, No. 11 Group - Battle of Britain)
Squadron1No=5

[AirGroup 3]
StartDate=19400623
EndDate=19400731
Squadron1Class=Trainer
Squadron1No=1

[AirGroup 4]
StartDate=19400801
EndDate=19400908
Squadron1Class=FHurricaneMkI    ;No. 1 Sqn. RAF (fighter squadron, No. 11 Group - Battle of Britain)
Squadron1No=6

[AirGroup 5]
StartDate=19400909
EndDate=19450930
Squadron1Class=Trainer
Squadron1No=1


;****************** THE END ******************

What do you think?

That sounds OK to me but again, my knowledge of airplanes mechanics in the campaign is quite limited. I guess it should work generally. I'll make sure to post my findings as soon I learn something new about planes...

[gap]

Originally Posted by vdr1981

That sounds OK to me but again, my knowledge of airplanes mechanics in the campaign is quite limited. I guess it should work generally. I'll make sure to post my findings as soon I learn something new about planes...

Thank you for your support Vecko

If you don't mind, for now I have one last question: during your SH5 debugging activity, have you met any major problem - as ctd's or severe lags - connected with the large number of aircraft being drawn by the game at the same time? In other words: is there a limit that I should conform with when assigning planes to an air group, or I can be relatively free in equipping them with a (more or less) realistic number of aircraft?

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

Is that a question about history or is it relative to SH5?

In the former case I am afraid I have not an answer, but being a protective measure I can imagine that spotters were launched more often in potentially hostile waters than in totally safe conditions, where no enemy was to be met.

No, I was just curious how it worked in history - on one there's the notion that task forces containing precious capital ships were sailing at high speed and zigazgging to minimize chances of being torpedoed, and on the other what would be needed to regularly launch and recover scout planes - stopping entire task force including the expensive battleship so it can fish its scout plane out of the water. Possibly, several times a day.

Originally Posted by gap

Thank you for your support Vecko

If you don't mind, for now I have one last question: during your SH5 debugging activity, have you met any major problem - as ctd's or severe lags - connected with the large number of aircraft being drawn by the game at the same time? In other words: is there a limit that I should conform with when assigning planes to an air group, or I can be relatively free in equipping them with a (more or less) realistic number of aircraft?

One more thing to consider: is SH5 "squadron" simply a group of aircraft flying together? If so, the realistic numbers would not be whatever the actual squadron had, but the usual number of planes in a group (which for many recon/patrol planes would be one).

[propbeanie]

Don't forget also that a squadron of six planes only expected 4 to be available at any given time, due to maintenance, waiting on parts, lack of pilot, etc. In the SH games, six planes means that you have six planes, though they might be "launched" individually or by twos...

[gap]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

No, I was just curious how it worked in history - on one there's the notion that task forces containing precious capital ships were sailing at high speed and zigazgging to minimize chances of being torpedoed, and on the other what would be needed to regularly launch and recover scout planes - stopping entire task force including the expensive battleship so it can fish its scout plane out of the water. Possibly, several times a day.

If recovering those planes was so complicated that the whole process might have exposed a task force to more risks than it was worth, why did they carry them? A Walrus had a gross weight of more than 3 metric tons. Add to that catapult's weight. Wouldn't they spare that weight for extra stores/ammunition? I understand that, at some point, with the advance in radar technology and more fleet carriers available, scout planes enbarked on battleships and cruisers were made redundant, but I can't imagine them being carried around for no reason

Originally Posted by kapuhy

One more thing to consider: is SH5 "squadron" simply a group of aircraft flying together? If so, the realistic numbers would not be whatever the actual squadron had, but the usual number of planes in a group (which for many recon/patrol planes would be one).

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Don't forget also that a squadron of six planes only expected 4 to be available at any given time, due to maintenance, waiting on parts, lack of pilot, etc. In the SH games, six planes means that you have six planes, though they might be "launched" individually or by twos...

Good points. Let's put together some information.

In reality

According to Wikipedia

Originally Posted by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squadron_(aviation)

A squadron in air force, army aviation, or naval aviation is a unit comprising a number of military aircraft and their aircrews, usually of the same type, typically with 12 to 24 aircraft, sometimes divided into three or four flights, depending on aircraft type and air force. Land based squadrons equipped with heavier type aircraft such as long-range bombers, cargo aircraft, or air refueling tankers have around 12 aircraft as a typical authorization, while most land-based fighter equipped units have an authorized number of 18 to 24 aircraft.

In naval aviation, sea-based and land-based squadrons will typically have smaller numbers of aircraft, ranging from as low as four for early warning to as high as 12 for fighter/attack.

Originally Posted by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bomber_Command_aircrew_of_World_War_II#Aircrew _leadership

Until mid-summer of 1943 most bomber squadrons comprised three flights, "A", "B" and "C", each of 7–10 aircraft. [...]. During the expansion of RAF Bomber Command from the summer of 1943 many squadrons consisted of two flights, each having 8– 12 aircraft

The website of No. 8 Squadron (which belonged to the Aden Command and performed ASW patrols during WWII) contains some interesting information too:

Originally Posted by https://www.viiisquadron.co.uk/history/1939-1945/maritime-patrols

In August 1941 the first Blenheim Mk IVs were received and by November the Squadron possessed over 20 of the improved aircraft. By the summer of 1942, the Vincents were finally withdrawn and replaced by the Blenheim Mk V. In September 1942, the Squadron strength was 31 Blenheim Mk Vs and 10 Blenheim Mk IVs.

Summing up, the typical figure for most Air Forces can be considered 12, 18 or 24 aircraft per squadron. My guess is that it is not an accident if the numbers above are all multiples of 2, 3, or 4, as this was the number of flights composing a squadron. That said, a minimum of 4 aircraft and a maximum in excess of 40 aircraft are also registered. Talking about the high extreme, I have a couple of remarks:

- No.8 Squadron had several detachments in Oman, Yemen and Somalia; this reduces the number of aircraft per station. I doubt its 41 Blenheims to have flown all at the same time just from one airbase.

- What should be considered besides number of aircraft, is number of aircrews per squadron. Especially by mid-late war, some RAF squadrons might have had more aircraft than they could actually operate, due to lack of crews. Unfortunately, informationion available on this point is pretty scarce.


In game

According to my experience (please tell me if I got something wrong), no matter how high is the number of aircraft assigned to nearby bases, their planes will always patrol singularly or in couples. If an aircraft or any another unit spots an enemy, it will call for reinforcements and more aircraft will visit the detection area. I have not direct experience of that, but according to propbeabie, in SHIV a maximum of 7 aircraft will look for our submarine if we were previously detected, which, imo, is pretty realistic. Even in this case (planes spawning purposely for attacking an enemy), having an higher number of aircraft assigned to a base, won't imply them spawning all at once.

Summing up: to the best of my (limited) understanding, a large number of planes in air groups won't have much effect on the size of "flights" (i.e. groups of aircraft flying together) spawned by that group, but it will increase the chance of aircraft spawning - singularly or in groups of two - for maritime patrol purposes. If the statement above proves true, relatively high numbers of aircraft per group should be reserved for long-ranged patrol bombers, because they need to cover a much bigger patrol area than shorter-range aircraft, especially in the suaezed SH5 world, where distances are bigger than in real world.

I wish to know your thoughts on these points guys

[propbeanie]

I have a video somewhere, where I was testing my submarine detecting enemy ships, and "phoning home" for an "airstrike". The 3 ASW type vessels were anchored, set to competent. My submarine was roughly 6200 yards away, outside any semblence of accurate fire from the enemy vessels. Generally speaking, after reporting my contacts, I would then see a response from a nearby airbase in roughly 20 minutes. First one airplane, generally (not always) too far to the "left" of the group to attack - even though they appeared to be well within visual range. A few minutes later (3-5??), there would be a group of 2 or 3 airplanes to the right of the group, sometimes close enough for at least one of the planes to attack, sometimes both. After an initial attack by an airplane, they next groups of planes would arrive generally "on-target", or close to it. Usually though, it seemed like there would be 2 or 3 flights of single & double planes already inbound that would not get the message. No matter what though, if there was any intervening terrain within the "spawn range", the airplanes would "crash", and then chance-generate a "Survivor", which is what I was testing for at the time...

finally found one of them

not as interesting as I had hoped - I used too much TC for continuity... there is another where an airplane crashes into the island mountain in front of the boat, and then another crashes into the one behind us. What I really remember is the one where 3 PBY sink all three ships in one combined attack... In this one, I end up having to do long-range torpedo shots to take them out, because the Allies had run out of airplanes... lol - the game will sometimes "skip a round", and doesn't send planes out each roll of the dice chance.

[gap]

@ propbeanie, interesting report and nice video. Thank you for sharing them!

Do you remember how many planes were assigned to the nearby airbase? During your tests, did you try playing with this number?

[propbeanie]

I knew you would ask me that, yet I still didn't look that up...

I used a "regular" LAB_NormalAirBase, which for the time period, used AirGroup 2 (the list and some of the airplanes have since changed, btw):

[AirGroup 2]
StartDate=19420602
EndDate=19440101
Squadron1Class=LBSUSSearchPlane
Squadron1No=2
Squadron2Class=FBP51Mustang
Squadron2No=2
Squadron3Class=FBWildcat
Squadron3No=3
Squadron4Class=LBSPBY5A
Squadron4No=3
Squadron5Class=LBSPBY5
Squadron5No=3
Squadron6Class=USDiveBomber
Squadron6No=6
Squadron7Class=FBP47
Squadron7No=4
Squadron8Class=FBP40Warhawk
Squadron8No=4
Squadron9Class=LBB25Mitchell
Squadron9No=4

of which we normally saw the P-40 and Wildcat dispatched first, then the PBYs would show up, sometimes the Dauntless, and sometimes the B-25, which if they come, turn out the lights!... (cannons) the "dive bombers" in SH4 are more like "glide bombers" that then either crash & burn immediately after launch, or pull-up, stall, and then crash and burn, even when set to "Expert", as vdr1981 alluded to earlier. Even the B-25s and PBY have issues with bomb runs. In FotRSU, all aircraft are set to "Expert", and they do fly better, though still not at a "competent" level. Maybe flight school student level... "You want me to do WHAT with that airplane?"... l

[gap]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

I knew you would ask me that, yet I still didn't look that up...

I used a "regular" LAB_NormalAirBase, which for the time period, used AirGroup 2 (the list and some of the airplanes have since changed, btw):

[AirGroup 2]
StartDate=19420602
EndDate=19440101
Squadron1Class=LBSUSSearchPlane
Squadron1No=2
Squadron2Class=FBP51Mustang
Squadron2No=2
Squadron3Class=FBWildcat
Squadron3No=3
Squadron4Class=LBSPBY5A
Squadron4No=3
Squadron5Class=LBSPBY5
Squadron5No=3
Squadron6Class=USDiveBomber
Squadron6No=6
Squadron7Class=FBP47
Squadron7No=4
Squadron8Class=FBP40Warhawk
Squadron8No=4
Squadron9Class=LBB25Mitchell
Squadron9No=4

of which we normally saw the P-40 and Wildcat dispatched first, then the PBYs would show up, sometimes the Dauntless, and sometimes the B-25, which if they come, turn out the lights!... (cannons) the "dive bombers" in SH4 are more like "glide bombers" that then either crash & burn immediately after launch, or pull-up, stall, and then crash and burn, even when set to "Expert", as vdr1981 alluded to earlier. Even the B-25s and PBY have issues with bomb runs. In FotRSU, all aircraft are set to "Expert", and they do fly better, though still not at a "competent" level. Maybe flight school student level... "You want me to do WHAT with that airplane?"... l

Order of appearance might be related with the different speeds of each aircraft. This is something we should take into account, otherwise fighters will take the place of more specialized but slower maritime surveillance aircraft. Except for attack fighters armed with cannons or rockets and for carrier-borne fighters, they should be used sparingly and they should be given a small max radius, so that they won't fly too far from the coasts.

[propbeanie]

In SH4, the ranges come from the airplanes' cfg files, and the "order of appearance" is all chance. Other than the "patrol" platforms, which go out every so often no matter what, the "response" airplanes are always a roll of the dice. If you have six planes, each plane has a die dot. If the game rolls a "one", the "one" plane goes out. If the game rolls a "two", the "two" plane goes out, etc. The only way in SH4 to control what goes out is to restrict the AirGroups and specific planes available. Such as, we might want Corsairs going out instead of Wildcats, if there is a US Marines' AirBase nearby, or maybe drop the number of planes available of each type, or just drop all but one or two plane types from an AirBase. It does involve cloning though. You might want to clone a Corsair one way for later CV use, while the land-based version might have a shorter range. You might also want to clone specific AirBase assets, such as an LAB_FP40_AirBase or LAB_LBWhitley_AirBase, or whatever... The only problems with more airbases is of course, complexity, plus more airplanes responding if they are all within range of the detected U-Boat...

[gap]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

In SH4, the ranges come from the airplanes' cfg files

In addition to the max radius setting in aircraft cfg file, in SH5's AirStrike.cfg there is a global 'Maximum Aircraft Range'. It should be there also for SHIV.
I am not 100% about its usage by the game, but it is likely to override individual ranges of each plane, if they exceed that limit.

Originally Posted by propbeanie

and the "order of appearance" is all chance. Other than the "patrol" platforms, which go out every so often no matter what, the "response" airplanes are always a roll of the dice. If you have six planes, each plane has a die dot. If the game rolls a "one", the "one" plane goes out. If the game rolls a "two", the "two" plane goes out, etc.

I understand that, but since all the dices are rolled at the same time, the first aircraft arriving from a given airbase to the point of detection, will be the top speed ones. Unless their number/range is limited compared to other types of aircraft, we will always see them. Indeed, soon or later slower aircraft will join the party too, but by that time we will be dead or we will have submerged and cleared the area for good.

As noted by kapuhy in this thread, in SH5 the most common aircraft encounters are with aircraft types which, historically, did not sink any U-boat and which - due to their operational usage, would have seldomly attacked any naval target. In a submarine simulation this is not good.

Originally Posted by propbeanie

The only way in SH4 to control what goes out is to restrict the AirGroups and specific planes available. Such as, we might want Corsairs going out instead of Wildcats, if there is a US Marines' AirBase nearby, or maybe drop the number of planes available of each type, or just drop all but one or two plane types from an AirBase. It does involve cloning though. You might want to clone a Corsair one way for later CV use, while the land-based version might have a shorter range. You might also want to clone specific AirBase assets, such as an LAB_FP40_AirBase or LAB_LBWhitley_AirBase, or whatever... The only problems with more airbases is of course, complexity, plus more airplanes responding if they are all within range of the detected U-Boat...

You are making some good points. creating as many 'proxy clones' of each aircraft featured in game as the squadrons using it, is an idea I had myself. In practice, I think that creating specific clones for the main variants of those aircraft and for the various types of armament (i.e. AHurricaneMkIIC_bombs, AHurricaneMkIV_rockets, BBlenheimMkIV_dcs or TBMarauderMkI_torps), would be more rationale. Since in WWII warfare squadrons with similar duties tended to use the same aircraft with the same armament and they had comparable patrol ranges, it is likely that each aircraft cloned in game could be assigned to multiple airbases / air groups

[propbeanie]

The game doesn't seem to send all of its "response" planes out at one time, unless you are a submarine that's been detected, then you will see a large group come after you, but even still, it's almost like they are spawned with first one plane, then a bit later, two planes. I have had nothing but PBY respond a few times. Other times, only B-25. Others, just the worthless Buffalo "USFighter". While it depends upon the AirBase cfg and its squadrons, the AirBase does not send all of its airplanes out at once. However, they will keep sending them out until the "threat" is eliminated, though a cycle through the AirStrike cfg file might "miss" with a round or two.

You of course, can "clone" the AirBases also, and have them "specialize" in what you want, which is the way we did some of the bases around Japan. We were having too many airplanes crash into the mountains along the ocean because of having to fly from Nagasaki or Tokyo for a response to a sub detected off of Bungo Suido, or Kii Suido. We would get a plane response, but only a very few would make it. So we cloned the Small AirBase, and put 2-plane AirGroups of a given fighter in them, with the occasional patrol plane base, and it keeps players "honest" to a point, yet doesn't deluge them with too many planes, or planes crashing into land masses, causing system resource overload while the game tracks crashed planes and "survivors"...

You wouldn't necessarily have to make the AirGroups "historically numbered", with say 24 airplanes in its AirGroup, because the game will use all 24 of them. You would only need maybe six maximum, to get an appropriate response, unless you want to make the AirGroups the size of an average squadron response. One set of pilots would be resting, another patrolling, and a third on standby. Plus, there would be planes waiting on parts for necessary repairs...

By cloning AirBases to have different squadrons, you can then eliminate the inappropriate airplanes in the other squadrons, and then you won't have Hellcats and Mitchells coming in when you should have Beauforts & Mosquitoes... with rockets... and Leigh lights... and radar...

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

(i.e. AHurricaneMkIIC_bombs, AHurricaneMkIV_rockets, BBlenheimMkIV_dcs or TBMarauderMkI_torps)

re: torps - do they even work in SH5? So far I've never seen torpedo bomber drop a torpedo.

[gap]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

re: torps - do they even work in SH5? So far I've never seen torpedo bomber drop a torpedo.

With IRAI installed, they should. Nonethelesse, like in reality (or even ore), they are not perfect, and for using them each aicraft must be set carefully an tested. IIRC, the nastiest bug with them was they goings backwards once dropped. I don't remember what is the trick that fixes that, but in SH5 and SHIV there should be multiple threads and posts on this topic


@ propbeanie,

thank you for your long answer mate. Please find my replies below

Originally Posted by propbeanie

The game doesn't seem to send all of its "response" planes out at one time, unless you are a submarine that's been detected [...]

In one of your first replies on this thread, you had written that the detection of a submarine "qualifies" for the spawning of up to seven "response aircraft" at any given moment. I suppose this is the max size of an "ASW response group", though its aircraft won't arrive all contemporarily, but in small groups of 1 or 2 aircraft every few minutes. From your last reply I also get that, after a longer interval, the game will spawn other "responde groups", even though probably we won't be anymore there for telling it.

Is my interpretation of your reports correct?

If yes, does the game spawn only one of such a "response groups" at any given time, or more that one group can be spawned if multiple airbases are within player's range?

Does the number of aircraft assigned to each base (beyond the maximum number of seven aircraft composing each ASW group) affect this scheme and, if yes, how?

Within each group, do faster aircraft arrive first, or the order of arrival is totally random?

Originally Posted by propbeanie

You of course, can "clone" the AirBases also, and have them "specialize" in what you want [...]

With the working method I have in mind, we wouldn't have "generic" airbases. Each airbase modelled in game would correspond to a real RAF station, and its air groups will elvolve reflecting its WWII usage by various RAF squadrons. Only squadrons relevant to the game will be considered:

- defensive fighter squadrons located near the coasts of the British Empire, equipped with "bomb-less", "short-ranged" aircraft so that they will only act as coastal defenses against harbor raids, attacking any close-enough enemy with their guns/cannons;

- maritime surveillance/reconnaissance squadrons whose aircraft should be equipped with flares and sea marker bombs rather than explosive bombs.

- ASW squadrons, whose aircraft will be initially equipped with ordinary bombs, gradually replaced by depth bombs and (where they apply) torpedoes and rockets as the war progresses and more specialized weapons become available.

- Anti-shipping squadrons, whose aircraft will be equipped with bombs, torpedoes and rockets.

- Convoy-defense squadrons, whose airccraft will be equipped with a variety of different armaments, depending on base location and on the most likely menace that they would have faced.

Possible gaps between one "operative" air group and the next one, will be filled with "filler air groups". See post #44 in this thread on what I mean for "filler group". Should one of the operative air groups cause any problem (as per your example), I will reduce the number of its aircraft to ridiculous amount, or I will replace it with a filler group.

Originally Posted by propbeanie

You wouldn't necessarily have to make the AirGroups "historically numbered"[...]

Well it all depends on how the game will use those aircraft, but I see your point anyway.

Whatever is the most appropriate number of aircraft per squadron, I want to keep this number as constant as possible. If at some point, in reality, an airbase hosted two squadrons equipped with the same aircraft, in game I want that base to have roughly twice the number of aircraft it would have had if only one squadron was using it. Likewise, if historically a squadron had one or more detachments, in game it should contribute to each of its bases a lesser number of aircraft than it would if all its aircraft where "assigned" to one base.