A bunch of questions on aircraft

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

scout plane-equipped battleships and cruisers

A bit on a side from this discussion, but I wonder, if the general rule for capital ships in U-Boat infested waters was to sail at high speed and not stop for anything in order not to become an easy target for a torpedo, how do you regularly recover your scout plane?

[gap]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

A bit on a side from this discussion, but I wonder, if the general rule for capital ships in U-Boat infested waters was to sail at high speed and not stop for anything in order not to become an easy target for a torpedo, how do you regularly recover your scout plane?

Is that a question about history or is it relative to SH5?

In the former case I am afraid I have not an answer, but being a protective measure I can imagine that spotters were launched more often in potentially hostile waters than in totally safe conditions, where no enemy was to be met.

Talking more specifically about the game, we should consider that - if no one finds a way to get TDW carrier patch to work - those scout planes would spawn outside rendering range; that is 20 km in stock game, probably more in TWoS. In other words, we would never see a battleship or a cruiser in 'alert state' launching her aircraft just in front of our eyes: we could imagine it to have been deployed long before enemy detection. On the contrary, in early war (before fleet carriers become available in numbers), those little planes would help task forces to be more "aware" of their environment and to better defend themselves.

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

Is that a question about history or is it relative to SH5?

In the former case I am afraid I have not an answer, but being a protective measure I can imagine that spotters were launched more often in potentially hostile waters than in totally safe conditions, where no enemy was to be met.

No, I was just curious how it worked in history - on one there's the notion that task forces containing precious capital ships were sailing at high speed and zigazgging to minimize chances of being torpedoed, and on the other what would be needed to regularly launch and recover scout planes - stopping entire task force including the expensive battleship so it can fish its scout plane out of the water. Possibly, several times a day.

Originally Posted by gap

Thank you for your support Vecko

If you don't mind, for now I have one last question: during your SH5 debugging activity, have you met any major problem - as ctd's or severe lags - connected with the large number of aircraft being drawn by the game at the same time? In other words: is there a limit that I should conform with when assigning planes to an air group, or I can be relatively free in equipping them with a (more or less) realistic number of aircraft?

One more thing to consider: is SH5 "squadron" simply a group of aircraft flying together? If so, the realistic numbers would not be whatever the actual squadron had, but the usual number of planes in a group (which for many recon/patrol planes would be one).

[propbeanie]

Don't forget also that a squadron of six planes only expected 4 to be available at any given time, due to maintenance, waiting on parts, lack of pilot, etc. In the SH games, six planes means that you have six planes, though they might be "launched" individually or by twos...

[gap]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

No, I was just curious how it worked in history - on one there's the notion that task forces containing precious capital ships were sailing at high speed and zigazgging to minimize chances of being torpedoed, and on the other what would be needed to regularly launch and recover scout planes - stopping entire task force including the expensive battleship so it can fish its scout plane out of the water. Possibly, several times a day.

If recovering those planes was so complicated that the whole process might have exposed a task force to more risks than it was worth, why did they carry them? A Walrus had a gross weight of more than 3 metric tons. Add to that catapult's weight. Wouldn't they spare that weight for extra stores/ammunition? I understand that, at some point, with the advance in radar technology and more fleet carriers available, scout planes enbarked on battleships and cruisers were made redundant, but I can't imagine them being carried around for no reason

Originally Posted by kapuhy

One more thing to consider: is SH5 "squadron" simply a group of aircraft flying together? If so, the realistic numbers would not be whatever the actual squadron had, but the usual number of planes in a group (which for many recon/patrol planes would be one).

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Don't forget also that a squadron of six planes only expected 4 to be available at any given time, due to maintenance, waiting on parts, lack of pilot, etc. In the SH games, six planes means that you have six planes, though they might be "launched" individually or by twos...

Good points. Let's put together some information.

In reality

According to Wikipedia

Originally Posted by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squadron_(aviation)

A squadron in air force, army aviation, or naval aviation is a unit comprising a number of military aircraft and their aircrews, usually of the same type, typically with 12 to 24 aircraft, sometimes divided into three or four flights, depending on aircraft type and air force. Land based squadrons equipped with heavier type aircraft such as long-range bombers, cargo aircraft, or air refueling tankers have around 12 aircraft as a typical authorization, while most land-based fighter equipped units have an authorized number of 18 to 24 aircraft.

In naval aviation, sea-based and land-based squadrons will typically have smaller numbers of aircraft, ranging from as low as four for early warning to as high as 12 for fighter/attack.

Originally Posted by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bomber_Command_aircrew_of_World_War_II#Aircrew _leadership

Until mid-summer of 1943 most bomber squadrons comprised three flights, "A", "B" and "C", each of 7–10 aircraft. [...]. During the expansion of RAF Bomber Command from the summer of 1943 many squadrons consisted of two flights, each having 8– 12 aircraft

The website of No. 8 Squadron (which belonged to the Aden Command and performed ASW patrols during WWII) contains some interesting information too:

Originally Posted by https://www.viiisquadron.co.uk/history/1939-1945/maritime-patrols

In August 1941 the first Blenheim Mk IVs were received and by November the Squadron possessed over 20 of the improved aircraft. By the summer of 1942, the Vincents were finally withdrawn and replaced by the Blenheim Mk V. In September 1942, the Squadron strength was 31 Blenheim Mk Vs and 10 Blenheim Mk IVs.

Summing up, the typical figure for most Air Forces can be considered 12, 18 or 24 aircraft per squadron. My guess is that it is not an accident if the numbers above are all multiples of 2, 3, or 4, as this was the number of flights composing a squadron. That said, a minimum of 4 aircraft and a maximum in excess of 40 aircraft are also registered. Talking about the high extreme, I have a couple of remarks:

- No.8 Squadron had several detachments in Oman, Yemen and Somalia; this reduces the number of aircraft per station. I doubt its 41 Blenheims to have flown all at the same time just from one airbase.

- What should be considered besides number of aircraft, is number of aircrews per squadron. Especially by mid-late war, some RAF squadrons might have had more aircraft than they could actually operate, due to lack of crews. Unfortunately, informationion available on this point is pretty scarce.


In game

According to my experience (please tell me if I got something wrong), no matter how high is the number of aircraft assigned to nearby bases, their planes will always patrol singularly or in couples. If an aircraft or any another unit spots an enemy, it will call for reinforcements and more aircraft will visit the detection area. I have not direct experience of that, but according to propbeabie, in SHIV a maximum of 7 aircraft will look for our submarine if we were previously detected, which, imo, is pretty realistic. Even in this case (planes spawning purposely for attacking an enemy), having an higher number of aircraft assigned to a base, won't imply them spawning all at once.

Summing up: to the best of my (limited) understanding, a large number of planes in air groups won't have much effect on the size of "flights" (i.e. groups of aircraft flying together) spawned by that group, but it will increase the chance of aircraft spawning - singularly or in groups of two - for maritime patrol purposes. If the statement above proves true, relatively high numbers of aircraft per group should be reserved for long-ranged patrol bombers, because they need to cover a much bigger patrol area than shorter-range aircraft, especially in the suaezed SH5 world, where distances are bigger than in real world.

I wish to know your thoughts on these points guys

[propbeanie]

I have a video somewhere, where I was testing my submarine detecting enemy ships, and "phoning home" for an "airstrike". The 3 ASW type vessels were anchored, set to competent. My submarine was roughly 6200 yards away, outside any semblence of accurate fire from the enemy vessels. Generally speaking, after reporting my contacts, I would then see a response from a nearby airbase in roughly 20 minutes. First one airplane, generally (not always) too far to the "left" of the group to attack - even though they appeared to be well within visual range. A few minutes later (3-5??), there would be a group of 2 or 3 airplanes to the right of the group, sometimes close enough for at least one of the planes to attack, sometimes both. After an initial attack by an airplane, they next groups of planes would arrive generally "on-target", or close to it. Usually though, it seemed like there would be 2 or 3 flights of single & double planes already inbound that would not get the message. No matter what though, if there was any intervening terrain within the "spawn range", the airplanes would "crash", and then chance-generate a "Survivor", which is what I was testing for at the time...

finally found one of them

not as interesting as I had hoped - I used too much TC for continuity... there is another where an airplane crashes into the island mountain in front of the boat, and then another crashes into the one behind us. What I really remember is the one where 3 PBY sink all three ships in one combined attack... In this one, I end up having to do long-range torpedo shots to take them out, because the Allies had run out of airplanes... lol - the game will sometimes "skip a round", and doesn't send planes out each roll of the dice chance.

[gap]

@ propbeanie, interesting report and nice video. Thank you for sharing them!

Do you remember how many planes were assigned to the nearby airbase? During your tests, did you try playing with this number?