Sh3.exe and Asdic in shallow waters

Stiebler · 11-05-11, 02:41 PM

From October 1944 - May 1945, U-boats with schnorchels patrolled very close to land around the British Isles, relying on the poor detection ability of Asdic in shallow waters, with their fast tides, large rocks and ancient wrecks.

SH3 does not model this failure of asdic in shallow water at all.

I have been looking at the problem, and have now a functioning double-code patch that changes asdic capability according to the depth of the sea. Specifically, the 'minimum surface' (MS) of asdics (original values found in file AI_Sensors.dat') are now changed according to sea-depth in four bands:
Depth > 150m: MS = 100 (m2, metres squared).
Depth >100m: MS = 150
Depth >50m: MS = 200
Depth < 50m: MS = 300.

These changes are not dependent on the year, they will apply throughout the war.

However, for some reason the properties (range, angle, MS, etc) of the asdics are not connected to their names, after loading into SH3. For this reason, I have found it necessary to use a unique value for asdic minimum surfaces, that is, the original value of 100.0 (in NYGM), for identification purposes. But other versions of AI_Sensors.dat use values different from 100.00 (eg GWX, value =0.0).

Therefore I have three queries:
1. Does anyone actually play SH3 around Britain in 1944-1945?
2. Will users be happy to change the minimum surface values of their asdics (only the asdics) to 100.00 in their files data\library\AI_Sensors.dat? It will require manipulation of this data file with a data editor (eg FileAnalyzer, or S3dtor), and the changes cannot be made with a text editor. [Thought: perhaps I could supply these files for stock and GWX as part of the patch-kit.]
3. NYGM has always used the MS=100.00 values, but my other choices of 150, 200 and 300 for decreasing depths are pure guesses. Would anyone be interested in testing this mod, once I have settled the other issues above? It will require a revised SH3Sim.act file, which I can supply, and an extra patch-kit for H.sie's V16A3 patch for SH3.exe.

Otherwise, I shall just keep the mod to myself!

Stiebler.

reaper7 · 11-05-11, 02:46 PM

Wow Steibler that is amazing. I would definitely be Interested in this for U-Boot_HAHD.
This would suit perfectly the TypeII as they are perfect boats for in the shallow's which we are basing our first Release on.
I'll get Makman94 to talk to on this matter as hes currently looking into sensors for our Mod.

EDIT: Hi Mate sent you a PM on this

Would be happy to test

HW3 · 11-05-11, 04:01 PM

Hum...might make bottoming a u-boat a viable evasion tactic like it was in real life.

Gerald · 11-05-11, 04:26 PM

A simple concept, avoid shallow water, where there is the issue of a need....

Jimbuna · 11-05-11, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HW3

Hum...might make bottoming a u-boat a viable evasion tactic like it was in real life.

Agreed.

makman94 · 11-06-11, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper7

Wow Steibler that is amazing. I would definitely be Interested in this for U-Boot_HAHD.
This would suit perfectly the TypeII as they are perfect boats for in the shallow's which we are basing our first Release on.
I'll get Makman94 to talk to on this matter as hes currently looking into sensors for our Mod.

EDIT: Hi Mate sent you a PM on this

Would be happy to test

i will fully gladly help Stiebler (if he want or need any help-tests) as much i can in sensors part becuase i believe that correct working sensors is the number one in list for having a 'realistic' gameplay (as far we can achieve )

@Stiebler : Excellent idea the asdic in shallow waters !!! as long as you are in this part in .exe ...please have a look at the 'vampire nights' issue (own crew has very large visual ranges during nights .tweaks at light factors at sim.cfg and sensors.cfg doesn't 'help' much to 'beat' this). so , i believe that a selective sensors project (meaning the game 'reads' other visuals during afternoon and other during deep night ) will solve the issue and will be an 'evolution' at final gameplay. if you have the will ...just have a look at it,i believe that it worths the effort !

bye

Rubini · 11-06-11, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makman94

i will fully gladly help Stiebler (if he want or need any help-tests) as much i can in sensors part becuase i believe that correct working sensors is the number one in list for having a 'realistic' gameplay (as far we can achieve )

@Stiebler : Excellent idea the asdic in shallow waters !!! as long as you are in this part in .exe ...please have a look at the 'vampire nights' issue (own crew has very large visual ranges during nights .tweaks at light factors at sim.cfg and sensors.cfg doesn't 'help' much to 'beat' this). so , i believe that a selective sensors project (meaning the game 'reads' other visuals during afternoon and other during deep night ) will solve the issue and will be an 'evolution' at final gameplay. if you have the will ...just have a look at it,i believe that it worths the effort !

bye

I seconded that. Fully agrre with makman94. A tweek/fix on visual sensors is a must have, a real necessity for sh3. We already have gone so far in mods but that vampire nigth view is yet a total immersion killer and irrealistic.

Now, coming back to the main issue here, great work Stiebler! Looking forward to this new mod. PM me if you yet need beta testers.

LGN1 · 11-06-11, 02:16 PM

Thanks a lot for the reply, Stiebler!

If one has to touch the AI_sensor.dat anyway, one could enter values for maxheight that would allow an identification

Anyway, while thinking about it, I remembered that for some sensors the value from the sim.cfg file is used if the value is 0. For sonar this is 100 m^2 in GWX. However, the other sonar parameters differ from NYGM, so it's important for those not using your mod with NYGM to (maybe) adjust the value.

Regards, LGN1

reaper7 · 11-06-11, 02:23 PM

This is going to be another great addition to Sh3

Were sensor ranges effected by weather in real life, if so maybe its possible to do similar to h.sie WIP Torpedo duds fix by applying decreasing range by waveheight

And also as mentioned above with the Vampire Vision of players U-Boat (Sensors.dat) and the AI Visuals (AI_Sensors.dat) could these be decreased as light levels dropped.
So there would be different values applied to Visual sensor for Dawn, Day, Dusk, Night and possibly Fogy conditions.

Any changes required to files for your Mod to work, will be Included with the U-Boot_HAD Mod to maintain compatibility with your work

Fish In The Water · 11-05-11, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stiebler

SH3 does not model this failure of asdic in shallow water at all.

I have been looking at the problem, and have now a functioning double-code patch that changes asdic capability according to the depth of the sea.

Sounds very interesting. Would certainly be a most welcome addition.

postalbyke · 11-05-11, 11:56 PM

Could be fun to test... I think I missed parts of it in the technical...
Explain again slowly the meters squared part, please?

I play NYGM so it wouldn't be a stretch...

ETsd4 · 11-06-11, 04:20 AM

definitely interested.
The meaning of "minimum surface of asdic" is totaly unclear for me.

complutum · 11-06-11, 04:30 AM

interested on testing, i'm a GWX user

Stiebler · 11-06-11, 05:30 AM

Thanks for the interest, those above.

But no one mentioned 1944-1945, did they? Hmmmm..

'MinimumSurface = 100.0 metres squared':
This means that the asdic must contact 100 square-metres of U-boat hull in order to send a contact-ping back to the transmitting warship. If the value is raised to 300 in very shallow waters, then 300 square-metres of U-boat must be contacted (about 17.5 x 17.5 metres.)

The value in GWX = 0.0. Maybe that explains why no GWX user ever makes it to 1944-1945.

Stiebler.

11-05-11, 02:41 PM	#1
Stiebler Fuel Supplier Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,237 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 4	Sh3.exe and Asdic in shallow waters From October 1944 - May 1945, U-boats with schnorchels patrolled very close to land around the British Isles, relying on the poor detection ability of Asdic in shallow waters, with their fast tides, large rocks and ancient wrecks. SH3 does not model this failure of asdic in shallow water at all. I have been looking at the problem, and have now a functioning double-code patch that changes asdic capability according to the depth of the sea. Specifically, the 'minimum surface' (MS) of asdics (original values found in file AI_Sensors.dat') are now changed according to sea-depth in four bands: Depth > 150m: MS = 100 (m2, metres squared). Depth >100m: MS = 150 Depth >50m: MS = 200 Depth < 50m: MS = 300. These changes are not dependent on the year, they will apply throughout the war. However, for some reason the properties (range, angle, MS, etc) of the asdics are not connected to their names, after loading into SH3. For this reason, I have found it necessary to use a unique value for asdic minimum surfaces, that is, the original value of 100.0 (in NYGM), for identification purposes. But other versions of AI_Sensors.dat use values different from 100.00 (eg GWX, value =0.0). Therefore I have three queries: 1. Does anyone actually play SH3 around Britain in 1944-1945? 2. Will users be happy to change the minimum surface values of their asdics (only the asdics) to 100.00 in their files data\library\AI_Sensors.dat? It will require manipulation of this data file with a data editor (eg FileAnalyzer, or S3dtor), and the changes cannot be made with a text editor. [Thought: perhaps I could supply these files for stock and GWX as part of the patch-kit.] 3. NYGM has always used the MS=100.00 values, but my other choices of 150, 200 and 300 for decreasing depths are pure guesses. Would anyone be interested in testing this mod, once I have settled the other issues above? It will require a revised SH3Sim.act file, which I can supply, and an extra patch-kit for H.sie's V16A3 patch for SH3.exe. Otherwise, I shall just keep the mod to myself! Stiebler. __________________ NYGM Tonnage War Mod - More than a mod: it's an experience!

11-05-11, 02:46 PM	#2
reaper7 sim2reality Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: AM 82 Posts: 2,280 Downloads: 258 Uploads: 30	Wow Steibler that is amazing. I would definitely be Interested in this for U-Boot_HAHD. This would suit perfectly the TypeII as they are perfect boats for in the shallow's which we are basing our first Release on. I'll get Makman94 to talk to on this matter as hes currently looking into sensors for our Mod. EDIT: Hi Mate sent you a PM on this Would be happy to test Last edited by reaper7; 11-05-11 at 03:01 PM.

11-05-11, 04:01 PM	#3
HW3 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Gresham Oregon Posts: 6,575 Downloads: 458 Uploads: 0	Hum...might make bottoming a u-boat a viable evasion tactic like it was in real life. __________________ "Some ships are designed to sink...others require our assistance." Nathan Zelk

11-05-11, 04:26 PM	#4
Gerald SUBSIM Newsman Join Date: May 2008 Location: Close to sea Posts: 24,254 Downloads: 553 Uploads: 0	A simple concept, avoid shallow water, where there is the issue of a need.... __________________ Nothing in life is to be feard,it is only to be understood. Marie Curie

11-05-11, 11:56 PM	#11
postalbyke Chief Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: In the past... Posts: 321 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 1	Could be fun to test... I think I missed parts of it in the technical... Explain again slowly the meters squared part, please? I play NYGM so it wouldn't be a stretch... __________________ God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire

11-06-11, 02:16 PM	#8
LGN1 Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,138 Downloads: 147 Uploads: 12	Thanks a lot for the reply, Stiebler! If one has to touch the AI_sensor.dat anyway, one could enter values for maxheight that would allow an identification Anyway, while thinking about it, I remembered that for some sensors the value from the sim.cfg file is used if the value is 0. For sonar this is 100 m^2 in GWX. However, the other sonar parameters differ from NYGM, so it's important for those not using your mod with NYGM to (maybe) adjust the value. Regards, LGN1

11-06-11, 02:23 PM	#9
reaper7 sim2reality Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: AM 82 Posts: 2,280 Downloads: 258 Uploads: 30	This is going to be another great addition to Sh3 Were sensor ranges effected by weather in real life, if so maybe its possible to do similar to h.sie WIP Torpedo duds fix by applying decreasing range by waveheight And also as mentioned above with the Vampire Vision of players U-Boat (Sensors.dat) and the AI Visuals (AI_Sensors.dat) could these be decreased as light levels dropped. So there would be different values applied to Visual sensor for Dawn, Day, Dusk, Night and possibly Fogy conditions. Any changes required to files for your Mod to work, will be Included with the U-Boot_HAD Mod to maintain compatibility with your work

11-06-11, 04:20 AM	#12
ETsd4 中国水兵 Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 278 Downloads: 91 Uploads: 0	definitely interested. The meaning of "minimum surface of asdic" is totaly unclear for me. Last edited by ETsd4; 11-06-11 at 04:32 AM.

11-06-11, 04:30 AM	#13
complutum Torpedoman Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Spain Posts: 118 Downloads: 387 Uploads: 0	interested on testing, i'm a GWX user

11-06-11, 05:30 AM	#14
Stiebler Fuel Supplier Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,237 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 4	Thanks for the interest, those above. But no one mentioned 1944-1945, did they? Hmmmm.. 'MinimumSurface = 100.0 metres squared': This means that the asdic must contact 100 square-metres of U-boat hull in order to send a contact-ping back to the transmitting warship. If the value is raised to 300 in very shallow waters, then 300 square-metres of U-boat must be contacted (about 17.5 x 17.5 metres.) The value in GWX = 0.0. Maybe that explains why no GWX user ever makes it to 1944-1945. Stiebler. __________________ NYGM Tonnage War Mod - More than a mod: it's an experience!