More than Mexicans crossing the border (Maybe AZ has the right idea)

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

you act like there are no Americans willing to do any of this work, when i know flat out that what you are saying is BS.

First lesson: Just because you don't agree with someone's opinion does not make it BS. Why can't you have a simple discussion with different viewpoints with out the emotions?

I can only report what I observe in my neighbourhood. That is why I did not make any blanket statements about all Americans. The observed fact is that our local businesses can't find Americans to apply for these jobs as they seem to think these jobs are "beneath" them. The reason I know this is because I talk to them and I interact with them in my volunteer work.

If American's are willing to hustle in your neighbourhood, that's great. You live in a good area for that. But your observations do not invalidate my observations.

[CaptainHaplo]

Platypus - your ignoring one major factor in GR's comment that is not in place....

The stopping of government handouts.

Sure, as long as someone can sit on welfare and get food and shelter - why should they work? Right now - the results you see in your neighborhood is exaclty because of this. Stop the government breast feeding - and you will have plenty of employees.

Ducimus - yes - you have a valid point - but if the work was there - and more AMERICANS were employed - more work would be there - so without the migrant workers - and the migrant worker pay being shipped to mexico - but instead being spent in the US - you get a beneficial cycle. More people buying more widgets, homes, cars, whatever, and thus more employees are needed. Wait - they won't work for peanuts - damn - corporations suddenly have no workers - they up their wages - Ducimus gets a decent wage - everyone wins. Sure - its not perfect and isn't going to always work that way - but let me ask you - is it not better than where we are today?

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

You know, i spent 7 years in the military as an engineer, trained as "Structural Specialist". That encompasses sheetmetal fabrication, weilding, masonry, concrete, and carpentry. What i know best is wall framing, sheetrock, mudding and taping, floor tile, drop ceilings, stuff like that. Mainly industrial construction (don't do alot of residential in the service).

Great job skills to fall back on, (in theory) and i wouldn't mind doing it. Infact, some of it I ENJOY and miss doing, and the sense of job satisfaction it brings. But i also know its pointless because nobody would hire me to do that work over an "migrant worker", and even if i were, i'd only be offered "migrant worker's" wages.

Yes those jobs that americans wont do now... like hanging sheet rock.

[GoldenRivet]

All i can say is that i shoveled my fair share of sh*t and dug my fair share of ditches.

its not a job specifically reserved for mexicans like the Democrats would have you think... Leftist racism aside, I think you might be surprised how many people would be willing to do that work if it werent dominated by borderline slave labor.

we have a minimum wage... there are individuals and companies out there who exploit illegal immigrants so they dont have to pay minimum wage.

lets go after these exploiters and boost the GDP at the same time by deporting these illegals.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by AngusJS

How about kids being brought along by their parents? How about pregnant women?

Kill them too?

That logic is flawed....so what your saying is if a person "Has" a child in tow they should not be killed?

What is closer to the truth would be "if" such a law was in place by a country then the parents or whomever has said child should be shot almost or at least have they're parental rights taken away for "endangering" said child....


No matter how you try to slice this bread is is really simple cut and dry.

Enter in through the front door else your a thief and a robber and your taking your chances and rolling the dice.

You may as well free every criminal in the system right now...if this is the logic to be applied....or is it if you just look pitiful enough or whatever then that makes it ok or I did it because i was poor or that a crime is committed....sell that to the judge next time you get a traffic ticket even.

This is where i do not understand and was offended recently by Obama for the first time...he seems to make light of the situation and laughed at Arizona for trying to enforce a law that "HE" should be making be upheld...AZZhole...that really pissed me off.

Sherrif Joe for Pres.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I don't see too many American's lining up to pick carrots these days.

That's an assinine assumption there...ship em back to where they came from and see who go's for the jobs...a ****ty balance was created and perpetuated by just that kind of thinking...tell you what...if i lost my job today you bet your ass I'd be lining up to pick dog **** up if I had to to feed my kids.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

But i also know its pointless because nobody would hire me to do that work over an "migrant worker", and even if i were, i'd only be offered "migrant worker's" wages.

HELLO....??? Anybody in there?...That's the whole point....wages have been driven so low ...dry up that supply of slave labor and them farmers or whomever will have to pony up and pay fairer wages....or go out of business and be swallowed up by other compnaies such is the way of a free economic society....wages would increase....here's another thing ....is Mexico that ****ty that no one wants to live there or can earn a living...seems to me the smarter thing would be to help them dorks stand up on theyre feet better and raise theyre own standard of living so maybe I would want to move there... wow what an idea.?

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

lets go after these exploiters and boost the GDP at the same time by deporting these illegals.

Now that is something I think we can all agree on.

The government (state and Federal) needs to be going after the US businesses that hire undocumented aliens and start throwing them in jail. Enough of these piddly fines. Make it so that US companies won't want to hire illegals.

Right now, there is still an advantage for US companies to hire illegals -- profit. The fines may be considered simply a "cost of doing business". Let's start putting the CEOs/owners in the slammer and then see if their attitude changes.

In other words, lets enforce the already existing immigration laws before we start making new ones.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Iceman

That's an assinine assumption there...

No that is not an assumption (asinine or not), it is an observation.

Now if I had written "No Americans are lining up to ..." that would be an assertion (not an assumption) and it would probably be asinine.

But that is why I did not write that. I wrote what I observed and I made it pretty clear that I was talking about what I, as an individual, was observing.

Please don't change my words to fit your argument.

[CaptainHaplo]

We so rarely agree on things - but so far no one has said that businesses should be getting a free pass for hiring illegals.

So why is that the laws that do hold employers accountable are not enforced?

And no - this is not just a democrat or republican problem - both sides have done absolutely nothing to insure the law is upheld. So no pointing fingers at its this "side" or that "side" that is responsible. They all are.

[tater]

I'm 100% behind jailing business owners/officers who hire illegals.

We still need to lock the border down, 100% (or as close to 100% as is humanly possible, including ANY MEANS to do so). Why? Because there are States like my stupid state (that you endless democrat control of the roundhouse) that give illegals official documents like DLs. In AZ right now, you can show a DL as proof of ID, even assuming you meet the tough standard of in effect probable cause that you are illegal. Show your NM DL, and you're fine.

BTW, there has been a rash of ID theft here in ABQ by illegals using the addys to obtain a DL with a false address. Since they can get a DL with their real address, and suffer no consequences, this means it's only for nefarious purposes, or perhaps for illegals out of state to have a legal US ID.

1. Lock the borders down, even with shoot to kill if that is what it takes.

2. ARREST employers that hire illegals, and massively fine the business. The goal here should be to set the fines such that if all employers of illegals were caught at once, it would 100% offset the total cost to the government of illegals (going back to the 80s, perhaps). HUGE fines. Might mean the business is liquidated and sold to raise the fine. Needs to scare employers enough to instantly have them all fire all illegals. Call it many 10s of thousands of $ per illegal caught in your employ, maybe 100s of thousands.

3. Set up a new immigration system with more (MANY more, again, I like mexicans, they work hard, I don't care how many come, I just want them to fill out a form first and be checked) mexicans allowed legally. The only place to get in line is IN MEXICO. Illegals here need to LEAVE, then reenter. Have the form in english ONLY, and have a language test for all applicants. Scoring higher puts you to the head of the line. New system includes guest workers, those can have lower english requirements.

[CaptainHaplo]

Tater - don't forget that we need to also deny Illegals welfare/social aid.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

We so rarely agree on things - but so far no one has said that businesses should be getting a free pass for hiring illegals.

So why is that the laws that do hold employers accountable are not enforced?

And no - this is not just a democrat or republican problem - both sides have done absolutely nothing to insure the law is upheld. So no pointing fingers at its this "side" or that "side" that is responsible. They all are.

The state of MD has the law stating employers hiring illegals will be arrested and most likely loose their business. The problem is whenever the law is exercised there is an outcry of human rights yadda yadda yadda.

[tater]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Tater - don't forget that we need to also deny Illegals welfare/social aid.

True, that goes without saying for me. Note that I don;t think it is possible or practical to refuse medical care. If they show up in the ER, however, they should be stabilized, and in the course of deciding how they will pay (lol) if they are illegal, they get deported (by medivac if need be—I said "stable," not completely better ).

Regardless, even if it was just extant law (again, the US federal law is far more harsh than the AZ law anyway),

It isn't an issue you can just say "regardless" to, you made a claim about the increased effectiveness of a new law in relation to the old law but used the actions under the old law and said how good it was.
Also how on earth can the Arizona laws be less harsh when their penalties are to be applied in addition to the federal penalty? Plus of course with their financial clawback they put in how do you think the penalty can ever be served?

You said it was totalitarian. Nonsense. Totalitarian states point the guns INWARDS.

You miss the point entirely tater, you are proposing summary execution without trial for what is legally a rather minor offence. That is what makes it like a policy in a crazy dictatorship.

I notice you avoid entirely the questions of cost and effectiveness, you didn't do the eminent domain angle either or the increasing power of the evil feds.
Does that demonstrate that you didn't think your proposals through much?