Nazi symbols and "immersion": boundaries?

[Armistead]

You think this is bad. I remember Sid Meyer's Gettysburg years ago and the many emblems squads used, but how can you take the confederate flag out of a Civil War game. To me it's the same, how can you take any true emblems of war out of a historically correct game.

I collect Civil War, am a Civil War re-enactor. I respect Southern history..as history. Simply, I have no problem with any emblem in itself. I have two original battleflags hanging in my basement along with all the stuff I collect and dig up. But you'll never see a confederate flag hanging in my front yard or a southern rights bumper sticker on my car. I accept we lost the war of Northern Aggresssion.

However, with marketing, placing games on shelves I guess you have to be correct, so we couldn't blame Ubi for that, but as long as people use emblems historically correct there should be no problems with modders adding them.

[Rockin Robbins]

Actually, the American Civil War is a very strange and interesting case. The North won the military struggle, and then sought to reincorporate the South.

Democrats from the South promptly took over the White House and resumed a very prominent place in the House and Senate. So they were able to keep laws relating to universal rights and promoting the security and civil rights of blacks from being enforced. In fact, as recounted in The Bloody Shirt: terror after Appomattox, by Stephen Budiansky, the "defeated" southerners waged a terror campaign worthy of the Taliban for the next 60 years, denying freed slaves any freedom at all and killing any who "stepped out of line."

Fortunately, a reinvasion by northerners seeking sunshine and lower costs of living decimated the south once again during the 1960's, 70's and 80's (which I am a part of), bringing the south securely into the national concept that all men are created equal.

But even today, everyone knows that the northern carpetbaggers goverening the south after the war were all cheating and killing thieves who needed to be put down by justified violence. Hogwash! They were enforcing the laws. While they were here we had black property owners, Senators, Representatives, Governors, local officials of all kinds doing good jobs. Once the terror campaigns held sway, all that was gone and slavery in all but name was reinstituted until the middle 1960's.

Read the book. What you know about the south is dead wrong, a false legend created by liars, killers and thieves who snatched victory from resounding military defeat in the American Civil War. What an amazing story! Read the book.

A good friend of mine is a Civil War reenactor. He was a southerner for a long time, but got tired of sitting around waiting to be asked to take part. He saw the light, bought Union regalia and now is in great demand for every event. He loves it! And he has a complete uniform and equipment for both sides. So you can see that there is no bad blood between the two sides within Civil War reenactors. They simply share a fascinating hobby that educates all of us.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

From this thread referencing this Interrogation report.

Well done mookie...nice find

So it wasn't me

Sad to see the thread deteriorate like it did....was enjoying my dialogue with AVG.

[Kipparikalle]

Congraturations, you somehow managed to derail this thread so succesfully, that it has gone from discussing about swastikas to American Civil War.


70% - 79.2% of the world population is fine with the swastikas being used in games. Period

[Armistead]

I loved being a part of the movie Gettysburg and God's and Generals, although the Gettysburg experience was much better. Can't say I ever saw myself on film, but the experience outside of the movie was great.
I think Gettysburg was so much better because the actors loved history.

Your friend must have been in a poorly run group. I could go to an event almost every weekend. Almost every event that takes place requires both groups. I actually have my GGG pappy's sword. No blue uniform will grace this body.

I'm in a calvary unit. What was funny in Gettysburg during a practice charge where we clashed, I popped someone reasonable hard, but not unusual for what we do. Off SHE plops off her horse. When her hat came off only then did I realize she was a girl. I was so sorry, but we southerners keep our girls back at the fires cooking.

For me it's a weekend thing, but you would be surprised at how many it becomes a total lifestyle. The fun things are the big Balls..nothing beats southern women in those dresses.

As for politics....that debate could on forever and I tend to refrain..

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Kipparikalle

Congraturations, you somehow managed to derail this thread so succesfully, that it has gone from discussing about swastikas to American Civil War.


70% - 79.2% of the world population is fine with the swastikas being used in games. Period

[Kipparikalle]

Prove me wrong

[Task Force]

I believe your right... the swastika is realy no difference to any other flag in my opinion, it becomes a bad thing when your put a bad meaning to it.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Kipparikalle

Prove me wrong

We're simply comparing other instances where this comes up and how gaming companies manage it and how community members often resolve the differences with common sense. A little research on American history may resolve why it was brought up.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Task Force

I believe your right... the swastika is realy no difference to any other flag in my opinion, it becomes a bad thing when your put a bad meaning to it.

When people put things in proper historical perspective flags and symbols aren't usually a problem. Most wouldn't have a problem with a Swastika being correctly used in a game, but would have a problem with Skinheads waving them in their face on the road...

The same reason my Confederate flag stays in the truck on the way to a re-enacting event and not flying off a 10ft pole off my bumper...not that you still can't see plenty of that driving into a Nascar race....but I'm paying more attention to all the girls tops coming off.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Armistead

You think this is bad. I remember Sid Meyer's Gettysburg years ago and the many emblems squads used, but how can you take the confederate flag out of a Civil War game. To me it's the same, how can you take any true emblems of war out of a historically correct game.

I collect Civil War, am a Civil War re-enactor. I respect Southern history..as history. Simply, I have no problem with any emblem in itself. I have two original battleflags hanging in my basement along with all the stuff I collect and dig up. But you'll never see a confederate flag hanging in my front yard or a southern rights bumper sticker on my car. I accept we lost the war of Northern Aggresssion.

However, with marketing, placing games on shelves I guess you have to be correct, so we couldn't blame Ubi for that, but as long as people use emblems historically correct there should be no problems with modders adding them .

Well said, I agree. And as a Southerner, I think it's obvious that the Civil War was a plainly BAD idea for the South, and although the rebel flag has a kind of cool appeal, I don't feel compelled to defend the South's actions. Actually, Sam Houston was the only man in Texas with any brains in 1861.

Houston was governor of Texas when the Confederates, in convention, declared its withdrawal from the Union. The convention officially informed the governor of the act, and that they had instructed their appointed delegates to ask for the admission of Texas into the Southern Confederacy. To this communication Houston promptly replied, in substance, that the convention had transcended its delegated powers; that its acts were usurpations; and that he should consider it his duty to act as governor until the legislature of the State should take action in the matter, regardless of all alleged changes in the political relations of the State. This reply produced great excitement. Believing the governor was about to assemble the militia of the State to resist the convention, that body passed an ordinance (March 8, 1861) which defied his authority. Then the venerable Houston, in a stirring address to the people, recounted his services and his trials, and complained bitterly of the " usurpations " of the convention, which, he said, " had transferred the people, like sheep from the shambles, from the Union to an unlawful league." Loving Texas too well to do aught that should kindle civil war upon its soil, he said he should not attempt, under the circumstances, to exercise his authority as governor, nor would he take the oath of allegiance to the Southern Confederacy. He took no part in public life after this act.

Originally Posted by razark

Sounds good to me. The thought had crossed my mind as well. Unless Neal wants to make a declaration.

Razark

I would rather not make any kind of declaration other than the current one we have laid out in the past on this subject, and that is, the nazi symbol is not a problem as long as it is in a historical context and not a political statement.

I prefer to see less of Hitler's logo, but that's just me. As long as we do not have an abundance of people displaying large swastikas as political statements, we should be ok.


I also know this subject, as well as many others, will be raised from time to time. Some people will have strong feelings about it but as long as we all agree to discuss it civilly, we're good.

thx
Neal

[sunvalleyslim]

Thanks Neal.............IMHO,....... sound advice

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I would rather not make any kind of declaration other than the current one we have laid out in the past on this subject, and that is, the nazi symbol is not a problem as long as it is in a historical context and not a political statement.

I prefer to see less of Hitler's logo, but that's just me. As long as we do not have an abundance of people displaying large swastikas as political statements, we should be ok.


I also know this subject, as well as many others, will be raised from time to time. Some people will have strong feelings about it but as long as we all agree to discuss it civilly, we're good.

thx
Neal

Having nazi symbology in one's signature is not what I would consider "historical context". Its more like an endorsement of the ideology than anything else. In this specific case censorship or a well defined forum rule that establishes that one cannot use nazi symbols in one's signature should be welcomed and enforced.

[tomoose]

I would rather not make any kind of declaration other than the current one we have laid out in the past on this subject, and that is, the nazi symbol is not a problem as long as it is in a historical context and not a political statement.

I prefer to see less of Hitler's logo, but that's just me. As long as we do not have an abundance of people displaying large swastikas as political statements, we should be ok.


I also know this subject, as well as many others, will be raised from time to time. Some people will have strong feelings about it but as long as we all agree to discuss it civilly, we're good.

Hear, hear Neal. I think you summed it up nicely. As to the signature blocks and swastikas that's another issue (e.g. suppose someone has a pic of their chosen U-boat commander and there's a nazi symbol in the background, is that political or simply a historical picture?) ergo I think should be dealt with on a case by case basis and hopefully the final decision will be respected.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

My view of the swastika or any other Nazi symbol is this:SO WHAT!!!!! The war ended many years ago, and its not like you have to download a mod that has the swastika in. If there is one and you find it offencive for some reason then the answer is simple don't download it or find a way to remove it so you don't have to look at it. And I think that most Germans during the war weren't really Nazis, it was a time of conform or be thown in jail or shot. I have a book called Agent ZigZag, its about an Englishman by the name of Eddie Chapman who wound up working first for the Abwehr and then for MI5 and it showed just how much some of the German people didn't care much for Hitler or the rest of his gang. It even has a photo of graffiti in the attic of La Bretonniere, the German Spy school in Nantes, France. The graffiti is Adolf caricatured as a carrot.:rotfl:And you know what else there are more iron crosses painted on German vehicals from WW2 than there are swastikas. So if you don't like the swastika or any other Nazi symbol, thats your problem.