Nazi symbols and "immersion": boundaries?

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Armistead

You think this is bad. I remember Sid Meyer's Gettysburg years ago and the many emblems squads used, but how can you take the confederate flag out of a Civil War game. To me it's the same, how can you take any true emblems of war out of a historically correct game.

I collect Civil War, am a Civil War re-enactor. I respect Southern history..as history. Simply, I have no problem with any emblem in itself. I have two original battleflags hanging in my basement along with all the stuff I collect and dig up. But you'll never see a confederate flag hanging in my front yard or a southern rights bumper sticker on my car. I accept we lost the war of Northern Aggresssion.

However, with marketing, placing games on shelves I guess you have to be correct, so we couldn't blame Ubi for that, but as long as people use emblems historically correct there should be no problems with modders adding them .

Well said, I agree. And as a Southerner, I think it's obvious that the Civil War was a plainly BAD idea for the South, and although the rebel flag has a kind of cool appeal, I don't feel compelled to defend the South's actions. Actually, Sam Houston was the only man in Texas with any brains in 1861.

Houston was governor of Texas when the Confederates, in convention, declared its withdrawal from the Union. The convention officially informed the governor of the act, and that they had instructed their appointed delegates to ask for the admission of Texas into the Southern Confederacy. To this communication Houston promptly replied, in substance, that the convention had transcended its delegated powers; that its acts were usurpations; and that he should consider it his duty to act as governor until the legislature of the State should take action in the matter, regardless of all alleged changes in the political relations of the State. This reply produced great excitement. Believing the governor was about to assemble the militia of the State to resist the convention, that body passed an ordinance (March 8, 1861) which defied his authority. Then the venerable Houston, in a stirring address to the people, recounted his services and his trials, and complained bitterly of the " usurpations " of the convention, which, he said, " had transferred the people, like sheep from the shambles, from the Union to an unlawful league." Loving Texas too well to do aught that should kindle civil war upon its soil, he said he should not attempt, under the circumstances, to exercise his authority as governor, nor would he take the oath of allegiance to the Southern Confederacy. He took no part in public life after this act.

Originally Posted by razark

Sounds good to me. The thought had crossed my mind as well. Unless Neal wants to make a declaration.

Razark

I would rather not make any kind of declaration other than the current one we have laid out in the past on this subject, and that is, the nazi symbol is not a problem as long as it is in a historical context and not a political statement.

I prefer to see less of Hitler's logo, but that's just me. As long as we do not have an abundance of people displaying large swastikas as political statements, we should be ok.


I also know this subject, as well as many others, will be raised from time to time. Some people will have strong feelings about it but as long as we all agree to discuss it civilly, we're good.

thx
Neal

[sunvalleyslim]

Thanks Neal.............IMHO,....... sound advice

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I would rather not make any kind of declaration other than the current one we have laid out in the past on this subject, and that is, the nazi symbol is not a problem as long as it is in a historical context and not a political statement.

I prefer to see less of Hitler's logo, but that's just me. As long as we do not have an abundance of people displaying large swastikas as political statements, we should be ok.


I also know this subject, as well as many others, will be raised from time to time. Some people will have strong feelings about it but as long as we all agree to discuss it civilly, we're good.

thx
Neal

Having nazi symbology in one's signature is not what I would consider "historical context". Its more like an endorsement of the ideology than anything else. In this specific case censorship or a well defined forum rule that establishes that one cannot use nazi symbols in one's signature should be welcomed and enforced.

[tomoose]

I would rather not make any kind of declaration other than the current one we have laid out in the past on this subject, and that is, the nazi symbol is not a problem as long as it is in a historical context and not a political statement.

I prefer to see less of Hitler's logo, but that's just me. As long as we do not have an abundance of people displaying large swastikas as political statements, we should be ok.


I also know this subject, as well as many others, will be raised from time to time. Some people will have strong feelings about it but as long as we all agree to discuss it civilly, we're good.

Hear, hear Neal. I think you summed it up nicely. As to the signature blocks and swastikas that's another issue (e.g. suppose someone has a pic of their chosen U-boat commander and there's a nazi symbol in the background, is that political or simply a historical picture?) ergo I think should be dealt with on a case by case basis and hopefully the final decision will be respected.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

My view of the swastika or any other Nazi symbol is this:SO WHAT!!!!! The war ended many years ago, and its not like you have to download a mod that has the swastika in. If there is one and you find it offencive for some reason then the answer is simple don't download it or find a way to remove it so you don't have to look at it. And I think that most Germans during the war weren't really Nazis, it was a time of conform or be thown in jail or shot. I have a book called Agent ZigZag, its about an Englishman by the name of Eddie Chapman who wound up working first for the Abwehr and then for MI5 and it showed just how much some of the German people didn't care much for Hitler or the rest of his gang. It even has a photo of graffiti in the attic of La Bretonniere, the German Spy school in Nantes, France. The graffiti is Adolf caricatured as a carrot.:rotfl:And you know what else there are more iron crosses painted on German vehicals from WW2 than there are swastikas. So if you don't like the swastika or any other Nazi symbol, thats your problem.

[Rockin Robbins]

And again, my position, which I have now clearly stated four times is being willfully distorted by those who can't argue against my position so they argue against something else.

My position: already stated. The swastika, when used in an environmental context, inside the game, is a reflection of historical fact and is used appropriately there. Inside the game, the swastika only reflects reality and makes no statement of your personal beliefs.

However, the use of Nazi symbols in your signature pic, or the use of Nazi related terminology such as "JewDogKiller" for a name on Subsim is your identity to others on Subsim, is wrapping yourself in that ideology and endorsing it. These are equivalent actions. If you do this, you should not be surprised if I call you out as being grossly inappropriate, and I will do so every time I see it. You should not be surprised if others call you a Nazi. For my part, I shall confine myself to saying you have very bad judgment. I do this, not for myself, because I have a very thick skin and don't care how stupid some may appear, but in the name of others, who have convinced me against my normal inclination for restraint. That is detailed above.

I don't call for any new Subsim rules. We have enough, thank you, and any rule made is likely to be worse than the disease. Over at Ubi forums, for instance, they ban ALL Nazi symbolism, even where historically justified. All I want is for people to think about what their signature, their Subsim identity, is saying about their beliefs and attitudes toward others.

If you really idolize the Third Reich and want to kill all the Jews, Catholics, Gypsies, southern Europeans, Jehovah's Witnesses, blacks and assorted others on Earth, by all means, adopt the Nazi flag as a siggy pic, take on a disgusting name and let us all know who you are. That's much less dangerous than remaining undetected. And we can all have a good laugh at you just before we put you on ignore.

But throwing the baby out with the bathwater is human tradition. Just look at all the people around here pretending that I am saying that no display of Nazi regalia is appropriate. Of course, their argument (unspoken) is that if it's proper in the game, it is proper to have the smiling officer, Fuhrer's medals, uniformed wife, all under the flowing Nazi flag as your signature too. After all, nothing means anything, it's all a game, if you have a problem (perform some kind of impossible physical activity with yourself). Of course, a logical extension of that line of thinking is that "JewDogKiller" would be a perfectly acceptable name, as nobody is actually trying to kill Jews here, don't be silly, the war was over 60 years ago, blah, blah, blah.

The reason my views are being distorted and the reason everyone is arguing against another position entirely is that they are unable to effectively disagree with my REAL position. It's called the straw man fallacy in debate, and it is nothing but an endorsement of my real position. After all, you will choose every time not to disagree with a position you agree with.

Wow! Everyone has demonstrated agreement with me then. That's good.

[mookiemookie]

I don't see that having a kriegsmarine poster in your signature automatically makes you a Nazi. SH3 is a game about the U-boat arm of the kriegsmarine, and thus a kriegsmarine poster is in the spirit of what the game is about. If it were one of the Nazi propaganda posters about the "Jewish threat" or some such nonsense in someones signature, then I would be more inclined to agree. However, a U-boat fan with a Kriegsmarine recruiting poster in his signature is not a whole lot different than a fleet boat fan with a U.S. Navy submarine service recruiting poster in his sig.

[Rockin Robbins]

I don't see that having a kriegsmarine poster in your signature automatically makes you a Nazi.

Yup, I agree with that. Again, you are arguing against something that is not my postiion. A kriegsmarine poster doesn't have to contain and most often did not contain any Nazi overtones. The kriegsmarine looked upon itself as a professional occupation above politics.

Granted, politics did enter into their activities, sometimes by an enthusiastic Nazi demonstrating command abilities and being promoted, sometimes by imposition of an officer responsible for enforcing party loyalty. But I have no problem with the use of a kriegsmarine recruiting poster that doesn't have explicit and prominent Nazi overtones. Yes, it's possible that somewhere on the poster there might be a swastika or German flag. But it would not be the predominate message of the the poster, and so would fall under the protection of being historically appropriate.



THIS, however has the Nazi flag as its dominating element. It flies over the entire top of the poster and envelops the man. This symbolism is willful and intended to say that this man is devoted to and places himself voluntarily (I'm assuming this is supposed to be a recruiting poster) and "honorably" under glorious Nazi rule. "Join the Navy and be an elite part of the Fuhrer's glorious Reich." Here I'd say the word "Kriegsmarine" doesn't get the poster off the hook. It is like putting "Peace on Earth" on the bottom a "Kill the Jews" poster.

And it is not the same as most of the real Kriegsmarine posters that I have seen. They tend not to be grossly political in this manner.

[Armistead]

If you trace any symbol enough someone could rightly say it's offensive. Should I say the American Flag is offensive because slavery existed under it for about a hundred years longer than it did under the Confederate Flag, for all the Indians that were murdered and robbed under it?...In truth it could be just offensive to many groups of people. Should we remove it from the game. We, like the Nazi's were just as brutal, only difference is we won, so it doesn't bother us....We would all stand and say we now know the difference..doesn't change the past history of those we conquered.

We should also remove the Russian flag for it's evil, the Spanish flag for it's evil,...and so on.

Behind every great nation lies an evil that was done, where life and property by war won the day.

I've never understood people that get so upset and don't understand the difference between those that play video games and those that do things in real life. Believe it or not 99% of people know the difference, the 1% that doesn't would still be acting the way they do video games or not.

What'ts silly is your mind knows all the symbols and reality and people pretend their need to be minds..er, screwed so they don't have to know about it as if they don't exist.

This is why we will eventually be limited from about everything, knowledge, truth, so we can all be politically correct. One person can come in and ruin anything today by screaming "you're all racist for this or that." when people simply want to immerse themselves into the reality of history.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Having nazi symbology in one's signature is not what I would consider "historical context". Its more like an endorsement of the ideology than anything else. In this specific case censorship or a well defined forum rule that establishes that one cannot use nazi symbols in one's signature should be welcomed and enforced.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Armistead

I suppose you would if members of subsim started putting porn images in their signatures. Somehow I don't think so. If you're because of free speech, well having free speech doesn't give you a free pass to say whatever you like. Try to write something that defamates a specific person and see how quickly you'll be sued, and free speech argument thrown by the side.

[tater]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Having nazi symbology in one's signature is not what I would consider "historical context". Its more like an endorsement of the ideology than anything else. In this specific case censorship or a well defined forum rule that establishes that one cannot use nazi symbols in one's signature should be welcomed and enforced.

This is true.

I suppose one could argue that an unaltered image of a boat with a flag on it, or a skipper with a nazi symbol around his neck, etc would be within some sort of historical context, but ADDING the symbols in photoshop to pictures that lack them... shows some political pathology, IMHO.

Not someone I'd invite to a dinner party, likely (and you should see the various political parties go at it over my dinner table sometimes ). Course that sort might not leave mom's basement often anyway, even if invited out.

tater

PS—I'd say the same about Soviet or other communist imagery, BTW, they bumped off rather a lot of people as well. That includes those morons wearing Che shirts.