Ghosts of Bataan

[Hylander_1314]

Thanks Gerrit,

Will have to write a few more notes in my books on this. But that's how I get a clearer understanding of things. Just goes to show that authors don't always get the facts straight.

Piersyf,

Actually, the United States of America was forged as a Constitutional Republic. All one has to do is recite the Pledge of Alliegence, or recite the title to, The Battle Hymn of the Republic. My daughter got a real eye-openner when I gave her copies of The Federalist Papers, The Anti-Federalist Papers, and Common Sense. These were all very important in helping to shape the fledgling government of America, in her post colonial days. But she is one of the few who now has an understanding of where and how America's history began. And the different forms of government that was debated by the Founding Fathers. All one has to do is quote from history, Benjamin Franklin's responce when asked by a Mrs. Powell of Philadelphia, "Well Dr. Franklin, do we a republic, or a monarchy? You have a republic madam, if you can keep it".

Gotta cut this one short, take out the trash, feed the dog, and then off to training class.

[clayp]

Originally Posted by Kapitan_Phillips

You should care. You fight, you get brigged. You continue, you get keelhauled.

You've all been warned. This isnt the place.

I didn't notice this yesterday...Are you threating me?

[ReallyDedPoet]

Originally Posted by clayp

I didn't notice this yesterday...Are you threating me?

clay, KP is not threatening you, however he has warned folks, including yourself to keep the conversation here above bar and on topic regarding the Original Post.

So no threats, SUBSIM has rules for posting, we just ask folks here to respect them.


RDP

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

OH, BOY THE DRAMA. I LOVE IT!

C'mon play nice now.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Originally Posted by DavyJonesFootlocker

OH, BOY THE DRAMA. I LOVE IT!

Ahhhh, the mob arrives to check out the show. Sorry, no drama here
Move along now

Ok, back on topic.....


RDP

[ancient46]

"War never changes." If you really look at it, war is an atrocity all by itself. Unfortunately sometimes it is a necessary evil, and people are willing go to die in defense of their way of life. There will always be people who see themselves as superior to others and want to dominate the world, they must be stopped. Others want you to live your life the way they do or want you to stop doing the things they would never do, they also need to be stopped. If they are willing to resort to violence to get their way, we must also respond in kind. War is often a result of intolerance.

These problems are neither racial or country specific they are character faults in the worst of us. If the worst come to power, which they so often do when the conditions are right, war happens. We must never lose sight of what war really is and the cruel and heartless acts that can be done in it. We need to educate our children about Bataan and similar horrifying events that political historians deem unsuitable for public education. After all, those who do not learn from history are doomed ro repeat it.

[GerritJ9]

Hylander, a bit off the original topic here....... but Mark Parillo's "The Japanese Merchant Marine in WWII" has some illuminating statistics about Japan's oil problem. At the start of the Pacific War, Japan had some 3.6 million tons of HFO in stock, plus about 0.6 million tons of Avgas. Consumption of HFO and Avgas up to March 31st 1942, when the conquest of the Malay Barrier was pretty much complete, was about 0.6 million and 0.1 million tons respectively- and no replenisment. Capturing the oil fields and refineries in SE Asia did not solve Japan's long-term oil problem by any means. First of all, the oil wells on Borneo, Tarakan and Sumatra had been put out of action and putting them back into service would take time; ditto for the refineries of Singapore, Sumatra and Java. But here another serious problem appeared: transport. Pre-war, Japan's oil supply had been largely carried to Japan in foreign (i.e. US, British, Dutch, Norwegian and other) tankers, Japan's tanker fleet was simply much too small. With the embargo being declared, and certainly after 8/12/1941, these ships were no longer available to Japan- plus, many of the Japanese tankers were requisitioned for supporting naval operations. Ergo, only a fraction of the required transport capacity was available to supply the Home Islands. Unlike Germany's European conquests, the territories Japan conquered had at best a small industrial base- no significant SE Asian shipyards existed for instance; no aero industry; no steelworks etc. So the IJA and IJN couldn't turn to local manufacturers for their requirements- almost EVERYTHING had to be shipped to Japan to be turned into ships, guns, planes, tanks etc. first- then, the results of that industrial activity had to be shipped out to the front over 1000s of miles.

After the oil embargo was announced, Japan had two choices- slow strangulation to a point when oil stocks would be so low that even defensive action would be out of the question and thus result in bowing to US demands; or war, seizing Malaya, the Philippines and the NEI and hoping that the Allies would accept the fait accompli. The first choice was out of the question- it would have meant HUGE loss of face in Asia, where (even today) loss of face is NOT ACCEPTABLE. The Western leaders totally underestimated this aspect.

Going back to the original topic, Bataan is one of the better known atrocities in the West, together with the Burma Railroad. But who remembers others? Although the IJA was responsible for most, the IJN was also responsible for their share, now half-forgotten: the treatment of Dutch and Australian POWs on Ambon, or the murder of survivors of ships sunk by Japanese submarine crews. Most in the western world can name several of the Nuremberg defendants- Göring, Ribbentropp, Jodl, Keitel, von Papen, Schacht, Kaltenbrunner, Seyss-Inquart, Frank........... But ask for names of those on trial in Tokyo and most will only be able to name Tojo. The west never really showed much interest in the Tokyo trials and unfortunately still doesn't.

[les green01]

here some others wake,manila in 45