TO ALL MODERATORS SH3 and SH5

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Originally Posted by Cukier

Please, no put sfasticas in the games. Its nazi symbol.

Remember: Auschwitz, Dachau, Treblinka...

It's almost always better to refrain from telling others what or how they should do or not do.

I understand you play SH5. Now you ask others to remove svastikas from this game, because they symbolize death camps. I understand you may take death camps personally, as you're Polish, possibly some of your family members died there. But then... how come you don't have a problem with playing a game where you become a soldier of a nazi regime, commander of a nazi boat in a nazi navy?

And if you don't have a problem about being a soldier of a nazi regime... how come you have a problem with a svastika?

So my conclusion is as follows: Do as you like. If you don't want svastikas, don't install mods that add them. If you don't want to feel like a nazi, don't take part in a nazi war. If you don't care, don't care. But don't tell me what's better for me, using emotional blackmail for this.

PS. Asking for no svastikas when playing an U-Boot commander is like asking for your plate of meats not to be called "meats" but "alternative vegetables" instead - because slaughter houses are so cruel places.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Actually, it`s an eastern religious symbol of prosperity, luck and happiness(buddhism, hinduism etc, you can see it on Buddha statues) which nazi only used for their propaganda/regime...

Correct. Folks here (Hindus) have those in their religous ceremonies. It's from the Iron Age and it is used for propserity and well-being as previously mentioned.

[tater]

Originally Posted by Cukier

Please, no put sfasticas in the games. Its nazi symbol.

Remember: Auschwitz, Dachau, Treblinka...

BTW, why is it that it's OK to role-play furthering the German war effort (and everything that means), but not OK to role-play helping Germany do what Germany did in WW2 with the proper flags?

Are you suggesting it is somehow less offensive to imagine yourself prolonging the war (and hence German body-count) as long as there is no flag around? The u-boat itself is a symbol of the war to anyone with half a clue.

If a flag offends you, my suggestion would be not to role play the Navy that fought to prolong that agenda.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

By the way, I found quite a lot of different POLISH svastikas on Wikipedia:

Boreyko coat of arms (XIV-XV centuries)


XII century church in Kruszwica detail:


Military unit (2 Pluton Strzecow Podhalanskich) celebrations, 1936, Sanok, Poland


The badge of the above mentioned unit:


Badge of another Polish unit (4 Pu³k Piechoty Legionów, 1915-1939)


Polish "Airborne and Antigas Defence League" badge (1928-1939)


Polish "1st Motorized Artillery Regiment" badge


And MANY others. Just for the record - none of the above was a sign of sympathizing with nazizm. These symbols were in use long before Hitler started his political career.


EDIT: I pasted these Polish svastikas as the author of this thread is Polish. I suppose these pictures will be a kind of shock to him.

making the game historically correct, including the visual symbols, does not mean you agree with what those symbols stand for.

it just means they are being represented accurately

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Webster

making the game historically correct, including the visual symbols, does not mean you agree with what those symbols stand for.

it just means they are being represented accurately

And there are plenty of mods that add them or remove them, so it's not like you have to look at them if you don't want to.




Unless of course the OP was referring not to their presence in the game, but (since he addresses the Moderators) to their presence on these forums, which could be a bit trickier question.

[tater]

By way of disclosure, while I have no problem with accurate representations in any game, I've never played SH3 or SH5 (won't buy the latter due to DRM), and while I have full SH4, I've never even looked at the u-boats in the add on. Not once, have no plans to, ever. I'd play a DD game to SINK u-boats, mind you. Even sank a couple in SH4 as a USN sub.

So if being immersed in a game fighting for the nazis bugs you, play something else would be my suggestion.

BTW, when it comes to "accuracy" I think it's important to realize that aside from PORT, you should not see flags at all. Did u-boats surface, and put out a nazi flag? No. Did ships run with flags on the jackstaff? Not at sea, except maybe special cases for photos. In SH4 I was thinking of an accurate flag mod---it would remove all the %@!$%! flags.

So I have to sort of wonder about "accurate" flags that fly on u-boats on patrol, since if those who use them really wanted accuracy, they'd really have no flag at all.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by tater

BTW, when it comes to "accuracy" I think it's important to realize that aside from PORT, you should not see flags at all. Did u-boats surface, and put out a nazi flag? No. Did ships run with flags on the jackstaff? Not at sea, except maybe special cases for photos. In SH4 I was thinking of an accurate flag mod---it would remove all the %@!$%! flags.

Of course that is true for submarines, which is why I use Anvart's Up/Down mods for SH3. I only fly the flag in port (except for when I'm playing the month before the war, then it's up all the time).

But surface warships have nothing to hide, and characteristically fly the flag from the stern flagstaff during the daytime while in port, and from the mast when at sea all around the clock, and especially when in combat. They want to know who is who.

I don't know if merchants did the same during the war, but I do know that attacking submarines were usually aware of the nationality of the ships they were attacking, so it wouldn't surprise me.

So I have to sort of wonder about "accurate" flags that fly on u-boats on patrol, since if those who use them really wanted accuracy, they'd really have no flag at all.

Very true, which is why I'm bugged that there is no Up/Down mod for SH4 or SH5.

[tater]

I have MANY pictures of japanese warships and merchants in combat. Countless, in fact.

Some have US ships as well.

Battle of Santa Cruz. Hornet has a flag on the mast. It's maybe slightly bigger than a flag you might have at home. Unless that is a singnal flag, it's so small I cannot be sure it's the stars and stripes. It's a tiny fraction of the size of the bedspring radar.

I just flipped through several dozen images, and found only a couple with what might be flags flying (ships underway, being attacked by planes). The flags are considerably smaller than my (unreleased) small flags mod. They might also be signal flags.

Dunno about US convoys.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

There should be no problem or issue provided people adhere to the understanding/perception that they are playing a computer based game with a WWII U-boat theme.

Originally Posted by SeaWolf U-57

And thats what it all boils down too Well said sir

Simplest form is sometimes the best.....does away with the need to go into the far end of a proverbial fart

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

(since he addresses the Moderators)

i think he wanted to direct this thread to the modders not the modderators

[Nufsed]

Originally Posted by Abd_von_Mumit

It's almost always better to refrain from telling others what or how they should do or not do.

I understand you play SH5. Now you ask others to remove svastikas from this game, because they symbolize death camps. I understand you may take death camps personally, as you're Polish, possibly some of your family members died there. But then... how come you don't have a problem with playing a game where you become a soldier of a nazi regime, commander of a nazi boat in a nazi navy?

And if you don't have a problem about being a soldier of a nazi regime... how come you have a problem with a svastika?

So my conclusion is as follows: Do as you like. If you don't want svastikas, don't install mods that add them. If you don't want to feel like a nazi, don't take part in a nazi war. If you don't care, don't care. But don't tell me what's better for me, using emotional blackmail for this.

PS. Asking for no svastikas when playing an U-Boot commander is like asking for your plate of meats not to be called "meats" but "alternative vegetables" instead - because slaughter houses are so cruel places.

Could not have put it better.

Please, no put sfasticas in the games. Its nazi symbol.

Remember: Auschwitz, Dachau, Treblinka...

On a personal note that has always troubled me, "there but for grace go I"
the power of this symbol goes way beyond any ones ability to reason this out.
The fact that the human being can level out at the depth the nazi mind discovered
is beyond be. No one should ever take this symbol lightly, lest it happen again.

I often think if I had been alive and in my 20s in nazi Germany at that time,
could I have stood up in the gale. It says in SH5 the diference between a good officer
and a great officer is about ten seconds, the time it takes to make the right decision I recon

So let none of us make light or be-little this persons view point, there are still people
in this world who would resurect this symbol and it's ideals. They would rob me of the
vital 10 seconds of grace I might need to make the correct decision again.

sid

[Rockin Robbins]

In the face of such symbols I think we must consider the fact that the owners of the swastika were completely and unconditionally defeated. The symbol no longer means anything and to be afraid of a defeated symbol is to give back the power we took from it.

That power was taken away by the lives of millions who although they were afraid of its then potent symbolism, still put their lives on the line to fight it. Those people did not shrink from the swastika, they defeated it. Let's not put the power back into a defeated symbol. And lets not forget that at any time we too may be called upon to pay a similar price to fight other symbols of evil in the future. Or, like the citizens of Poland, we may be crushed under the boot of the next such symbol. Little known fact: did you know that Poles most probably won World War II, although they were defeated, they made victory possible. I'll let someone else tell the story.

The swastika is a trophy, not a rallying point unless we make it so.

Well said RR.
That's exactly the attitude that should be taken.
To honour the fallen we must never forget what reasons they fought for.