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[JREX53]

I agree with your there bigboywooly, people do not use the search function and it really bugs the heck out of me also.

But like the Kpt. said, you guys do help people via PM's, all I am saying is, if it is new information, not already been talked about. What is the problem in bringing the information out, so that everybody knows and you wouldn't be asked the same questions in the future.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

Sailor Steve has the benefit a lot of us don't have. Age and experience. Not mention the patience of Job.

@Takeda.

I echo what Kpt. Lehmann said to you earlier re the hand shaking... and I think your 5 point plan looks fine to me. Would also personally speaking, not object to having you personally moderate a new ATO board.

What BBW wrote in yellow is also pretty much what is in my head as well.

Now was that so hard Penelope? A moderator to call your own. I promise to keep my sorry butt up in SH4. However, I do reserve the right to come into the SH4 uboat forum to see how things are progressing. One day, I will play the uboat again. How can I not? The countless hours spent making it great would be a travesty on my part not to use and enjoy the work that was put into it.

[Digital_Trucker]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Hi Digital Trucker,

The other day you posed a question asking why a modder would want to keep a modding tool to themselves... and seemed to feel as if keeping such a tool under guard was a selfish thing....

You asked for one reason why retaining limited access to such a tool should be viewed as acceptable.

I will answer your question with our primary reason:

We have limited manpower, and though we assist modders DIRECTLY via PM on many occasions, with the huge distribution of the GWX mod and its massive user support mechanism... We have chosen to mod for the user. We can either produce mods or teach people how to mod (and deal continuously with mass-confusion).... but we simply don't have the manpower to do both.

At any rate, we'd get roasted either way.

Hey, I'm a tool-writer (a minor one at that). I can't conceive of a purpose for writing a tool and not sharing it. Tools are meant to be used (not just written for one's self). Perhaps that belief stems from my first career as a programmer. I never wrote a program for myself. I also realize that one does not always have time to support a tool. I believe I mentioned that tools can be released "as is" and without support. Many tools end up that way when the creator drops out of the community.

I'll continue asking you a question to answer your question:hmm:If a tool is available to help to a modding job, why should a person "reinvent the wheel", so to speak. If a person wishes to make a mod and needs to do a job and there is an existing tool to do part of that job and said person is intelligent enough to operate the tool, why would the community be served better by not allowing him to use said tool? I can answer that question very easily. The community would not be served. You never know when someone who never even tried to mod, given the right tools, might come up with an "out of the box" idea that would totally change the game. Said person may not be able to create his own tool, as some are blessed with the talent to do.

Now, I am not suggesting that a "half baked" tool be released to the public. But who, in the tool writing business, deliberately sets out to write a "half baked" tool. Personally, whether I'm using the tool for my own uses or for others, I like it to work correctly and be something that's usable for a purpose.

On the other hand, withholding a tool simply because you don't want someone else to be able to do what you are doing (or you want it to be more difficult), is a totally different matter. Don't get me wrong here, I am not accusing anyone of having done so. I agreed with that portion of the petition as it was written because I believe that is the way for this game to be all that it can be. Perhaps that's because I write tools, but I also believe an open cooperative community is the best way to get a "job" such as this done.

Does that have disadvantages? Yes it does. Sometimes it creates confusion. Sometimes there are mod conflicts. To date, those mod conflicts have been handled in a "cooperative manner" here. People who do mods by themselves take the time to accomodate those that use a mod that conflicts with their mod. Sometimes, it is something simple that a person that enjoys inegrating things (such as myself) can handle.

Does it have advantages? Inumerable (pardon the spelling, I don't care to go look it up at the moment) ones. Ideas come from the strangest sources at times and there are tons of folks out there who have ideas but no way to put them into practice.

This is where your group and SH4's current community differ in theory. We are very loosely organized and open to contributions from anyone. We don't have a support group, WE ARE THE SUPPORT GROUP. For example, I write an app to handle radio stations in-game. Fred, who is a radio station creator, will often answer questions regarding my app when I don't get to them first. Others who are familiar with it will do the same.

We attempt to help one another in any way we can. That is the attitude, I personally enoy about the SH4 community. I will admit that I am no fan of "super mods". I care to take what I like and throw away what I don't like. Simply, I like my game the way I like it.

I tend to ramble sometimes, so I probably haven't answered your question directly, but feel free to cause me to ramble some more if I haven't answered the question.

I would also like to propose a theory to you that you may not have considered. You stated that you (being GWX) make mods, not teach how to mod. I propose to you that by teaching people how to mod you create more mods than you yourself could ever dream of:hmm: That is why when I say WE, I mean the entire community, not just some small group of individuals. Helping modders by PM is a noble thing to do, however, helping modders in an open forum where more than one modder can see what is going on would probably have a more productive result.

Edit : and as stated by Carotio while I was typing, surely wouldn't do the rep any harm.

[Penelope_Grey]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Now was that so hard Penelope? A moderator to call your own. I promise to keep my sorry butt up in SH4. However, I do reserve the right to come into the SH4 uboat forum to see how things are progressing. One day, I will play the uboat again. How can I not? The countless hours spent making it great would be a travesty on my part not to use and enjoy the work that was put into it.

Dunno what you mean by "Was that so hard"... but... moving on...

See right there, your promise to keep your 'butt' in SH4... its ALL SH4... what I have been saying all along is we all have a vested interest in SH4 for one reason or another... what differs is what we want out of it. I feel personally that GWX members have NEVER been welcome in the SH4 section but that is neither here nor there... FWIW now that Takeda has put up those 5 points... I think following him is the best plan for EVERYBODY at least from where I sit.

[bigboywooly]

Originally Posted by Carotio

I know this was not directed to me, but I'll like to comment that part in fat font.
Some modders, also among those some GWX modders, actually manages to help out both newbies and other modders achieving their own goals for gameplay, and isn't exactly that what a community is all about?
We all like our different way of gameplay, no matter if it's ATO or PTO.
I know you like one big package, which suits your game style. And though you may not have the manpower, you could give it an effort and still try and teach. Numerous members of your group do it more or less. You would do yourself a huge service to give it a try. It would might help on your reputation.
So what if not everybody understands the basic of your teaching in this or that tool? If just a handfull or two do, then new modders may be born.

KL, you know you and I have disagreed about issues many times, and we'll probably disagree again, but please read my message twice. It's meant in best intent for the better for all of us at subsim.

Support takes up a huge amount of time
And thats just for the mod
You are dealing with a constant shifting user base
New users come in all the time so support continues on GWX 2.1 and no doubt will do
Not everybody understands every part of GWX in the dev team
Ask me a campaign question and I will gladly answer
Ask the same question to the rest of the team and most have no idea
Similary ask me about sounds\sim files etc and you wont get anywhere as I have no clue and not really a desire to as other people manage that area

From a campaign POV I have only ever used one tool
Written by a NON GWX member with the specific instructions it was never to be released
So I honor his wishes
No good for SH4 anyway as built for the SH3 structure

So not only are we juggling RL and GWX 2.1 support AND trying to build a mod for SH4 but you want user support on tools created by ppl for them selves

Again those tools are created by the ppl who use them
THEIR tools
Not GWX ones
Down to individuals not a team

Personnaly I have spent most of the last 2 days in this thread alone
Time gone
Time I wanted to use scripting
Time wasted ?
Hope not
BUT time I will never get again

Compromises have to be made in some areas and thats down to individuals but compromises in how ppl wish to spend their time is up to them
If they choose not to provide support but to actually mod or indeed play well then so be it.
And you cant really force anyone into that

[Dowly]

Re:

Kpt.Lehmann: We can either produce mods or teach people how to mod (and deal continuously with mass-confusion).... but we simply don't have the manpower to do both.

And the ppl who say after it "but he and he did it, why cant you?"

I already said this in this thread. Even the smallest supermod would prolly takes dozens of pages to explaing how every new thing was done. Developement times would get waaaay longer just for the sake of documenting every single change of code in case the modder forgets what he did in some point to achieve the end result.

Let's take GWX for example (WELL I AM SORRY! I DONT KNOW ANY OTHER MOD ASWELL AS GWX!), it took over 2 years to do from beginning to end. Now, add documentation of every new find to that, I bet we'd be looking at 6-10 months of extra work to just sort out all the irrelevant info out of the notes all the modders of the team has made for themselves and rewrite all of it so everyone can understand it.

And what is the sole reason of this whole thing about "not sharing what you know"? Lazyness, the files are there for every released mod! Research them, dont expect an answer to be brought in front of you, the best way to learn things is doing and researching. That's how I've learned every game's modding I've done.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

Black Holes suck everything in and give nothing out... at the end of development Grey Wolves hands out a mod package most people can use and enjoy. Working off on our own is just the way we like to do things... free of distractions and sidetracks.

Yup, bad analogy, although some British guy with a wheelchair and who speaks through a computer says that black holes evaporate in elemental particles that are the very building blocks of the universe. ---------------- Now playing: Laika & The Cosmonauts - Telstar via FoxyTunes

[Digital_Trucker]

internet problem, double post, sorry

[bigboywooly]

Originally Posted by Digital_Trucker

I would also like to propose a theory to you that you may not have considered. You stated that you (being GWX) make mods, not teach how to mod. I propose to you that by teaching people how to mod you create more mods than you yourself could ever dream of:hmm: That is why when I say WE, I mean the entire community, not just some small group of individuals. Helping modders by PM is a noble thing to do, however, helping modders in an open forum where more than one modder can see what is going on would probably have a more productive result.

Edit : and as stated by Carotio while I was typing, surely wouldn't do the rep any harm.

Time
Who has the time to teach people to mod ?
Very few of GWX dev team have had time to PLAY the mod we created
Let alone teach people
I dont see many other people teaching someone to mod
Passing out what we know is all we can do

But I understand what you are trying to say

Even in open forums everything isnt visible
People work on thier own and post FINISHED bits
Not how they got to that point

Besides nothing GWX knows re SH4 is anything other than " reinventing the wheel "
Info is already out there
The terrain mod was a step up and is released
Mikhayl has visibly posted all he know on what he had done working on the Med mod

[bigboywooly]

Originally Posted by John Channing

Remember that active moderation cuts both ways.

JCC

Aye
ALL sides stand to lose people
As it should be

Besides time away from here is time spent modding
:rotfl:

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Digital_Trucker

Hey, I'm a tool-writer (a minor one at that). I can't conceive of a purpose for writing a tool and not sharing it. Tools are meant to be used (not just written for one's self).

This' the 3rd time this is explained on this thread. :p

Say, a modder needs a simple tool for use to help speed he's modding, he makes a very simple and basic tool and he can use it with no problem, because he made it and knows everything about it. Now, if he would release the simple and very basic tool to the community, it would start a 230 paged thread of questions "I cant get it to work!, How it works?, How to do that and that?"

What I mean, is that if a modder makes a VERY simple and basic tool just for himself to speed up the modding process, he shouldnt be obligated to share it with the community if he doesnt want to, for the simple reason that it would cause a huge flow of support requests.

It just wouldnt be worth it me thinks.

[TheBrauerHour]

You all are better than this. What happened here?

I am really surprised. I just decided to read this thread today, and I can't believe this is the same subsim I donated to in the past. I will ask you, why would anyone feel compelled to donate to help keep this site up right now? Does it make you feel good to know that you are destroying this community?

I have been playing WWIIOL for a while. I just got a new computer and thought it would be nice to try SH4 again...and this is what I come back to.


I am absolutely disgusted that the simple idea of community has so degraded here.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by TheBrauerHour

I have been playing WWIIOL for a while.

Heeey! Just subscribed for 3 months this week on WWIIOL. The nick's Dowly and you an find me mostly on the German side as an pilot.

[Carotio]

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

Support takes up a huge amount of time
And thats just for the mod
You are dealing with a constant shifting user base
New users come in all the time so support continues on GWX 2.1 and no doubt will do
Not everybody understands every part of GWX in the dev team
Ask me a campaign question and I will gladly answer
Ask the same question to the rest of the team and most have no idea
Similary ask me about sounds\sim files etc and you wont get anywhere as I have no clue and not really a desire to as other people manage that area

From a campaign POV I have only ever used one tool
Written by a NON GWX member with the specific instructions it was never to be released
So I honor his wishes
No good for SH4 anyway as built for the SH3 structure

So not only are we juggling RL and GWX 2.1 support AND trying to build a mod for SH4 but you want user support on tools created by ppl for them selves

Again those tools are created by the ppl who use them
THEIR tools
Not GWX ones
Down to individuals not a team

Personnaly I have spent most of the last 2 days in this thread alone
Time gone
Time I wanted to use scripting
Time wasted ?
Hope not
BUT time I will never get again

Compromises have to be made in some areas and thats down to individuals but compromises in how ppl wish to spend their time is up to them
If they choose not to provide support but to actually mod or indeed play well then so be it.
And you cant really force anyone into that

If you read further above in the thread somewhere, I did mention you as one of the guys who actually help, because I have witnessed it in numerous occasions. So I'm not complaining about you or your limits.
We all have our limits and especially limits to our time.
If someone releases a tool or mod "as is" without support, then so be it. This ain't what I'm questioning either.

It's about the feeling about secrecy. As someone says: it's noble to help in PM, but why not just bring the request AND the solution out in the open? This is no accusation against you or anybody else, but an open question to all.

But now that you brought up the theme of time and modding. Who are you modding for? Yourself or the community. If one mods for the community and chooses to release the work in the open, one should be prepared to spend time in answering questions how to alter this and alter that. Otherwise, just keep the mod to yourself as if it never existed. No one forces anyone to release mods either. Sorry for my sarcasm, but do you get my point? The time can be spend in a much more constructive manner if spend teaching rather than modding in secret, then release a full working product, which everybody then wants explained how to alter.

Anyway, after reading the latest replies after this, I will spend the rest of the time of this evening by turning off my pc, go eat and watch tv, instead of using my time writing on my new altered periscope/uzo mod...

[TheBrauerHour]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Heeey! Just subscribed for 3 months this week on WWIIOL. The nick's Dowly and you an find me mostly on the German side as an pilot.

Hey I'll look for you. My gamename is juengere.