Nazi symbols and "immersion": boundaries?

[Stealhead]

Sie erhalten den Käse, und ich werde das Weißbier, dann werden wir ein paar Frauen.



Its cool Buddahaid I guess it is in the same ball park.Until a moderator tells you to stop Id say you could keep going with your idea.
I was not trying to discourage you I was just pointing out that the therad was splitting into more than one thing kind of cool to me one idea or thought connects to another right?
Jetzt Ihre Käse essen, bevor ich tun!

[Buddahaid]

I can almost read all that even though I've never studied German. It is pretty close to English if you squint your eyes und pay attention to the sounds. By the way, I'm driving a sub on my desktop and posting on a Dell Inspiron 600m with mobo issues. Just so you know I'm not that lonely.

Buddahaid

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by tater

Skinheads? What little I know of skinheads is that they are not all neo-nazis. I never mentioned them.

I never implied that they all belonged to neo nazi groups.

If you read what I said, I said that it would be reasonable to assume that they might be.

A sig is voluntary. The owner choses what content to put in the sig.

Not everyone with a swastika in a sig is a neo-nazi or other nazi wannabe, but SOME are. The % that are is likely higher than those that don't have the swastika sig. People like me, who don't even play the germans in games, have a virtually zero chance of being neo-nazis. I play a lot of ww2 games online, and while the % of wannabe nazis or nazi hero-worshippers is small, it is not vanishingly small, and those who exclusively play them are the vast majority of such types. I've seen them for years in flight sims and ww2ol in game, in game forums, and OT forums. I have friends who play germans exclusively (fw-190 drivers, etc) who are clearly not, but they don't have swastikas forming anything more than a RL marking as part of the plane (tail in the case of LW).

Anyway, it creates the impression that you might be. Better, IMO, to "avoid the appearance of impropriety," as they say in the political world.

There are loads of people to hang out with in this world, and I'll not waste time with guys that see fit to add swastikas to sig files when the u-boat in the picture is fine without the additional image (I'm fine with it as a marking on the boat/plane/whatever, I'm only talking about adding them in a montage).

It's anyone's right to make what they want, but they shouldn't be surprised if they are judged by their CHOICE of symbology.
tater

You state you never implied, but in the same breath said we should assume they are...Why would you assume what someones character inside of a game is, when the object that offends is a historic part of that same game.

Inside a game people should be able to immerse themselves as long as they follow the rules and other than that people should butt out because you can't judge the motives of someone through a computer screen that has historical elements that were once offensive.

[Rockin Robbins]

There we go again with two fallacies.

Fallacy #1: failure to separate in-game display of the swastika, which is an environmental aspect saying nothing about the player other than he is playing a World War II game and has encountered or is playing the Germans, and use of Nazi symbolism in a sympathetic way in signature graphics outside the game in a forum like Subsim, which is a voluntary action.

The word "signature" implies a personal identification with whatever it contains and an agreement with its content. You would hardly sign your name "Charlie Brown" if you were really "Ellen Farr." The use of a male signature implies that you are male. Or at least it is reasonable for the reader to imply that you are male. Why would it be unreasonable for other personal attributes of a signature not to be similarly read? Symbols do mean things, even if we insist that they do not. When they are used voluntarily and substitute for an infinite list of signature graphics alternatives, they tend to be read as more important indicators of who the person is.

Fallacy #2: assuming that the Nazi movement was somehow German by necessity or character. The Nazis were just another totalitarian regime in a random country. Naziism was a disease, not an innate characteristic of the German people. Hitler was not different in character from Idi Amin, the "Butcher of Uganda," or Pol Pot, two other tinhorn dictators not worthy of respect or usage of their symbolism. The real Germany is the country you see today reunited at great cost, with the people of West Germany paying a significant personal price to repair grievous damage done to East Germany through 40 years of totalitarian socialism.

Other countries, including the United States could fall prey to a similar disease. Your diseases say nothing of your personal character. We no longer believe leprosy is a moral disease indicating personal depravity and deserving banishment from humanity. Naziism has no bearing on the character and greatness of Germanic people anywhere.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

It seems that this has split into two seprate threads one being the orginal the other being about the orgins of the germanic peoples.This is going to bcome one of those 100 pound tumors that you read about.

Ich bin deutscher Abstammung. Sind Sie? Was denkst du über das Eintauchen in Spielen? Mögen Sie Käse? Das ist lustig.

You're right, buddahaid and I are slowly drifting away from the original subject
So as to not further change the thread's direction I'll not reply to Buddahaids last post

What do you think buddahaid? One of us start a new thread in the general topics forum "History and culture of the germanic peoples"?:rotfl:

Ich bin nicht Deutsch, aber ich sprech' es doch ganz nicht schlecht, meistens kann ich genau sagen was ich sagen will. Naja, Niederländisch gleicht natürlich auch auf Deutsch.
Und ja, ich mag gern Käse

Originally Posted by Stealhead

dann werden wir ein paar Frauen

this means "then we'll become female". sounds like "wild night in bangkok"

[Armistead]

RR......It's a in game sig, not a life sig, there is a difference ya know. You do know.....

Next we'll be wanting to ban SS that have symbols on them because people can view them.

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Yep, English comes from German. French got thrown into the mix by the Normans, so we do have a lot of words descended from Latin, but relatively few.

I see I read more into this post than when I read it now, but, here is part of the Strasbourg Oath (842) as written, and then older and newer forms.

Strasbourg Oath
Pro deo amur et pro christian poblo et nostro commun saluament, d'ist di en avant, in quant Deus savir et podir me dunat, sI salvarai eo cist meon fradre Karlo, ...

Classical Latin
Per Dei amorem et per christiani populi et nostram communem salutem, ab hac die, quantum Deus scire et posse mihi dat, servabo hunc meum fratrem Carolum, ...

Conjectural Spoken Transistional Period
Pro deo amore et pro christiano popolo et nostro commune salvamento de esto die in abante, in quanto deos sapere et potere me donat, sic salvaraio eo eccesto mem fratre Karlo ...

Eleventh Century French
Por dieu amor et por del crestiien poeple et nostre comun salvement, de cest jor en avant, quant que Dieus saveir et podier me donet, si salverai io cest mien fredre Charlon, ....

Middle French
Pour l'amour Dieu et pour le sauvement du chrestien peuple et le nostre commun, de cest jour en avant, quant que Dieu savoir et pouvoir me donet, si sauverai je cet mien frere Charle, ...

Modern French
Pour l'amour de Dieu et pour le salut common du peuple chretien et le notre, a partir de ce jour, autant que Dieu m'em donne le savoir et le pouvoir, je soutiendrai mon frere Charles ....

Charlemagne or Carolus Magnus was German.

And yes, English evolved from the proto-germanic, but what written forms when only the Church could write?

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Armistead

RR......It's a in game sig, not a life sig, there is a difference ya know. You do know.....

Next we'll be wanting to ban SS that have symbols on them because people can view them.

Actually, no, it isn't an in-game sig. It's a public internet sig having no relationship to playing the game, which is not even necessary to post here.

I don't understand the irrational need to pretend that while on SS you are engaged in the act of playing SH4, unless that is the only possible defense for an otherwise unacceptable practice.

Trying to draw a non-existent equivalence is the same as saying "I have no real defense, so all I have left is just to make up a story." Then you repeat "posting on Subsim is playing Silent Hunter 4" until presumably people actually believe it. Seems a little tenuous to me...

Then there's the "next we'll be wanting to ban" scare tactic. That is equally ridiculous. After all, if someone either has Nazi sympathies or doesn't care if they make that implication, I want to know because that is an important piece of information about that person. I'll take that into account whenever I deal with them and will be able to do so in a more informed manner than if the expression was banned. They have a right to use Nazi symbolism in their signature pics. I have the right to call them on it. The only people talking ban are those in favor of the use of Nazi symbolism in signature pics.That is not a coincidence.

Stealhead wrote...

Sie erhalten den Käse, und ich werde das Weißbier, dann werden wir ein paar Frauen.

Babelfish translation ...

They receive the cheese, and I become the white beer, then we become a few women.

I think something was lost along the way or I just don't get it.

Urge

[Armistead]

I have no doubt people know the difference in game. Obvious this issue is sensitive to some and that's OK, it's just not to me. I know I don't have a racist bone towards this at all. Maybe it's all the past debates playing civil war games. You walk into a WW2 museum your gonna see all this same stuff in public, I doubt that makes them racist. You would say that's history, I would say that's the same historical aspect people playing immerse themselves in. I just don't judge people when they immerse themselves into any historical aspect of a game. However, I do understand to some it goes beyond a game, just never has for me.

Honestly I haven't been around or paid attention so someone probably did something in a racist way causing all these feelings some have, so........

...nuf said, bowing out.

[Sailor Steve]

@ Rockin Robbins: Sorry this side-thread developed within your topic. I'll answer this one here, but if it goes any further we'll get our own.

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

And yes, English evolved from the proto-germanic, but what written forms when only the Church could write?

Good point. My objection would be that the Germans did develop their own written language, and it had pretty much nothing to do with Latin. Also, the Church were the only group who spoke Latin, which in my opinion makes it a side-issue.

Or, as I once heard it, the French are the descendants of the Gauls who were conquered by Rome. The Germans stem from those Gauls who never surrendered. Lightweight, I know, but there's some truth in there somewhere.

@ Stealhead: The angle of the arm in the salute is pretty much irrelevant. The Americans of that time thought it was close enough to warrant changing it.

[Buddahaid]

The topic seems to have run it's course to where it's become a matter of opinion, and the side topic started from a reference to Hitler uniting western Europe as a German state again, under the swastika.

Buddahaid

[Rockin Robbins]

Bah! The side issue makes sense and has some connection with the original discussion. I don't have a problem with it. I still say that Naziism was a disease. Germany caught the disease. Germany was cured of the disease. The fact that they had a disease says nothing about the character of Germans.

I don't think there was anything especially German about Naziism. It is interesting that it happened there, but I think we have to be careful about making any conclusions from that.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

@ Rockin Robbins: Sorry this side-thread developed within your topic. I'll answer this one here, but if it goes any further we'll get our own.

Maybe we should... I too will make only one last reply, unless a new thread is made.

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

I see I read more into this post than when I read it now, but, here is part of the Strasbourg Oath (842) as written, and then older and newer forms.
[......]
Charlemagne or Carolus Magnus was German.

but what does this have to do with germanic languages? All I can see are latin languages, none of them even closely related to English or any other Germanic language. As Sailor Steve points out only the church and some government officials used those languages.
The Franks did rule over most of western Europe once, but it's been just Germanic influences. France remained a Gaullish land as Sailor Steve says. However, the Germanics do not stem from the Gauls. The Gauls had an entirely different culture/language. They were a Celtic people while the Germanics are, well, Germanic (big surprise, eh?). Both Roman historians of the time and modern Historians agree on their cultures being totally different. As Sailor Steve says most Germanic tribes were never defeated and as a result were never part of the Roman empire, and thus Roman influences are much less apparent in Germanic territories than in Gaulish territories.

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

And yes, English evolved from the proto-germanic, but what written forms when only the Church could write?

well, in continental europe there were the Elder and Younger Fuþark and later on the Fuþork (still being used in mid 16th century) while in the UK the Anglo-Saxon Fuþork was used up until the 9th century. (FYI, these are all runic alphabets)
Also, I don't know about the West-Germanic territories (even though I'm Dutch) but in Scandinavia the Younger Fuþark/Fuþork was common knowledge during the Viking age, a great amount of Scandinavians could write at the time.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I don't think there was anything especially German about Naziism. It is interesting that it happened there, but I think we have to be careful about making any conclusions from that.

That's all too true
Many countries have (had) similar nationalist movements that considered their own culture/race/whatever to be highly superior to other cultures/races/whatevers. The Nazi's only differ in that they were pretty successful at the time and that their acts were much more horrendous than most of similar movements.

But IMO nowadays we also have to be careful about making any conclusions about someone being a nazi. I'm a huge fan of metal music, and disgusted by the fact that left-extremist organisations entitle many folk/viking metal bands as nazis, only because they use old Germanic symbology and sing about Germanic mythology.
Similarly if I encounter a swastika in a sig on a WW2-related forum it doesn't mean anything more to me than that that person has some interest in the German military.
Of course this excludes non-ww2 related forums, where I think it does clearly make a statement about ones political alignment.