Nazi symbols and "immersion": boundaries?

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Interestingly, the Nazi salute is entirely different. It is nothing but the Roman military salute, one empire adopting the symbolism of another. OK, attempted empire. It was even referred to as the Roman salute by the Germans.

Pre-WW2, it was also the way American schoolchildren saluted the flag:

[Rockin Robbins]

Well, that sure wrecked a perfectly good salute!

[Stealhead]

My dad was in 1st grade in 1939 I can varify that school kids have never done that in front of the flag at school.That is a picture of some kids doing something that looks like a seig hail but that is not what it is.

[razark]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

My dad was in 1st grade in 1939 I can varify that school kids have never done that in front of the flag at school.That is a picture of some kids doing something that looks like a seig hail but that is not what it is.

It's called the Bellamy Salute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute

Created by the guy who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance.

By the way, Bellamy was a socialist. Interesting bits of history...

Razark

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

My recall of western European history makes nearly all the peoples Germanic in origin. [...] It's really pretty much just the Mohammedans and Celts that are not Germanic.

Only a small part of all the european countries are Germanic. The Netherlands, Flanders, Germany, Austria, Scandinavia and England could be considered Germanic. France, Wallonia, Spain and Italy are Latin, Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Brittany (and to some extent England too) are Celtic. Most countries in Eastern Europe are Slavic.
That said, of course it isn't as black and white as I describe it here. All of these cultures have been influenced by others, and also within these cultural groups there are a lot of differences.

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

Conversational latin diverged into french, spanish, italian, german and english.

Nope, the Germanic languages, including German and English, all descend from Proto-Germanic.

[Sailor Steve]

Yep, English comes from German. French got thrown into the mix by the Normans, so we do have a lot of words descended from Latin, but relatively few.

[DarkFish]

I couldn't have said it better myself
Indeed a lot of Germanic words originate from latin languages, and vice versa.
Only thing I can add is that English bears much more resemblance to Old-Norse and Dutch than to German.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by tater

Like RR I'm not in favor of banning language or symbols, not even in sigs.

That said, in the context of this game forum (talking about ww2) the symbol absolutely has meaning, and anyone using it in a sig is telling us something about himself whether he knows it or not.

It's sort of nice, really, it lets us know who's the sort who would turn in their neighbors if push came to shove.

Some will argue that statement, but that is absolutely a reasonable assumption that many might have viewing the sig. As RR said way up the thread, it's not about banning, it's about the people with the sigs thinking about how they wish to present themselves to the community. I haven't checked it this same debate is taking place in the SH3 forum, but maybe that's a better place to debate it.

I would say they are immersed in the German aspect of the game. You imply they all belong to some skinhead group....that's silly. They don't bother me at all. It never even crossed my mind, until someone brought it up, because it's part of the game. It's something I would expect to see.

[Stealhead]

You did pick the most Nazi like salute if you look at the wiki page it is clear that the Bellamy is at a much sharper angle than that of the germans. though I have never heard anyone form this era that I know ever mention it so it must not have been done by everyone. Though in the end a Pledge of Allegiance or anything of simular nation is clearly a nationalistic symbol.

Though I do see your point that there where several generaly simular salutes based on the Roman style during this time peroid.
The Hitler salute is bar far the most aggressive and rigid.

[tater]

Originally Posted by Armistead

I would say they are immersed in the German aspect of the game. You imply they all belong to some skinhead group....that's silly. They don't bother me at all. It never even crossed my mind, until someone brought it up, because it's part of the game. It's something I would expect to see.

Skinheads? What little I know of skinheads is that they are not all neo-nazis. I never mentioned them.

I never implied that they all belonged to neo nazi groups.

If you read what I said, I said that it would be reasonable to assume that they might be.

A sig is voluntary. The owner choses what content to put in the sig.

Not everyone with a swastika in a sig is a neo-nazi or other nazi wannabe, but SOME are. The % that are is likely higher than those that don't have the swastika sig. People like me, who don't even play the germans in games, have a virtually zero chance of being neo-nazis. I play a lot of ww2 games online, and while the % of wannabe nazis or nazi hero-worshippers is small, it is not vanishingly small, and those who exclusively play them are the vast majority of such types. I've seen them for years in flight sims and ww2ol in game, in game forums, and OT forums. I have friends who play germans exclusively (fw-190 drivers, etc) who are clearly not, but they don't have swastikas forming anything more than a RL marking as part of the plane (tail in the case of LW).

Anyway, it creates the impression that you might be. Better, IMO, to "avoid the appearance of impropriety," as they say in the political world.

There are loads of people to hang out with in this world, and I'll not waste time with guys that see fit to add swastikas to sig files when the u-boat in the picture is fine without the additional image (I'm fine with it as a marking on the boat/plane/whatever, I'm only talking about adding them in a montage).

It's anyone's right to make what they want, but they shouldn't be surprised if they are judged by their CHOICE of symbology.
tater

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

Only a small part of all the european countries are Germanic. The Netherlands, Flanders, Germany, Austria, Scandinavia and England could be considered Germanic. France, Wallonia, Spain and Italy are Latin, Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Brittany (and to some extent England too) are Celtic. Most countries in Eastern Europe are Slavic.
That said, of course it isn't as black and white as I describe it here. All of these cultures have been influenced by others, and also within these cultural groups there are a lot of differences.
Nope, the Germanic languages, including German and English, all descend from Proto-Germanic.

So your saying that the Franks were not a Germanic tribe? And that Clovis (a name that evolved into Louise) was not Germanic in origin? Anyway, it's very convoluted and arguments are difficult to support.

Buddahaid

[Stealhead]

It seems that this has split into two seprate threads one being the orginal the other being about the orgins of the germanic peoples.This is going to bcome one of those 100 pound tumors that you read about.

Ich bin deutscher Abstammung. Sind Sie? Was denkst du über das Eintauchen in Spielen? Mögen Sie Käse? Das ist lustig.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Mögen Sie Käse? Das ist lustig.

yum yum!

Isse butterkäse!

[Stealhead]

Ja, dass ist gut, Käse! Und mein Freund haben wir in einem dritten Thema: möchten Sie essen gut Käse? Oder möchten Sie gute Weißbier?

[Buddahaid]

My fault. I'll go away now and polish my Nazi flagpole.

Buddahaid