Accuracy of sub ranges

[vanjast]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Finding targets was a mathermatical probability directly proportional to the number of square miles of ocean surface searched. Every square mile not covered meant fewer Japanese ships on the bottom.

Ultimately proven by the code breakers that this method had a minor effect, as there were not enough boats to cover the whole ocean, whereas knowing where the convoys would be at a certain time, proved to be the 'weapon' of choice. Thus allowing a commander to lay in wait (submerged of course).

[Archive1]

LukeFF: I appreciate the information for the RFB boat - most helpful for those using that mod. For those inmersed in the TMO/RSRD mods there still remain questions regarding range. We'll have to see how it works out as people try to complete assigned patrols, using a speed setting of 9 to 10 knts, as time moves along.

Webster: to some extent I agree with you and I need to explore my references to see what I can find, but I do suspect that while COMSUBPAC tried to set SOP for subs, the commander on site had to modify those as he wanted/needed to. That ability - to individually alter SOP - is what was so clearly an advantage for the US in the Pacific theater. Well, indivudual initiative was/is the same powerful advantage for the US military even as we speak.

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

No, it's simply the percentage of fuel remaining that the game tells the player.

I see, so increases in fuel range throughout the war are not modelled? It's just this sub goes x miles at y speed? Hmmm... Oh well.

[keltos01]

a pity... Japanese boats had modifications late in the war changing the engines for less powerfull ones but with increased range... thus reflecting a change in tactics..

keltos

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by vanjast

Ultimately proven by the code breakers that this method had a minor effect, as there were not enough boats to cover the whole ocean, whereas knowing where the convoys would be at a certain time, proved to be the 'weapon' of choice. Thus allowing a commander to lay in wait (submerged of course).

A fine observation for those rare times when other circumstances made a counter strategy useful, but 95% of the time they were developing targets on their own and maybe 5% in pursuit of an Ultra target.

If you were correct, sinkings would have been more uniformly distributed among boats. In fact, a few boats with bolder search strategies dominated the fleet in the last year of the war, especially including Barb with Admiral Fluckey. Search as I've laid out was almost alone responsible for producing the most decorated boat and crew of the war. Fluckey's promotion to Admiral Lockwood's job afterwards tends to lend credence to my conclusions.

The code breakers didn't know anything about submarine strategy. They were just experts in interception and interpretation of enemy communications. Their information was often sketchy, imprecise or wrong. When they were right the typical run to the required position had to be on the surface WFO to a location not quite possible to reach in time.

If they DID arrive on time, they would, of course, slow down. But submerging would be a terrible strategy if you're expecting a convoy headed your way. Your first means of detection would be your radar. To use that you would at least have to be at radar depth. Then you have to be ready for extended evasion after the attack. This demands full batteries that you would not have if you lurk submerged waiting for them to appear. In the game you can hover at zero speed. A real sub couldn't do that under normal circumstances. In any event, waiting submerged any longer than absolutely necessary would severely handicap your chances of success in attack and/or surviving the encounter.

[vanjast]

Agreed there are different ways to drive a boat, car, aeroplane..

An interesting book - The Emperors Codes.. tells a different story.

In the Pacific, this sketchy info, was privvy only to certain people, cos the rest were a bunch of prudes, having the 'abilty without much effort to give the game away'. In fact there was so much of this info available, mostly ignored by some brass, cos they were still enstoned in WW1 tactics. It seems only a few brass had the forsight to use this info, while the rest 'played political games', to the detriment of countless ordinary soldiers.

[Bosje]

is it not true that on all sides, they were reluctant to use intelligence to direct their operational boats because they feared it would make the enemy aware of the fact that the codes had indeed been broken?

i remember reading something about the British Admiralty deliberately NOT rerouting some convoys to make the germans think that enigma was still secure. (not that they were happy to sacrifice their merchants but they only rerouted convoys based on information which could have also been acquired through other means than enigma code breaking. something like that, anyway)

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

Does anyone know how much fuel they actually start with? Can you see how many gallons you have?

As described above you start out with 100%. Its not measured in gallons.

My drop dead 'bingo' fuel to return of course varies on where I am and what year of the war (tenders nearby) but typically hovers somewhere around 33%.

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

I see, so increases in fuel range throughout the war are not modelled? It's just this sub goes x miles at y speed? Hmmm... Oh well.

Yep, that's how it's done. It's a shame, because all of the fleet subs ultimately had their range increased as the war went on.

[gAiNiAc]

Originally Posted by WEBSTER

well i may be in the minority opinion here but there is no way in hell your gonna make me believe patroling on the surface in the south china sea was Standard Operating Proceedure.

We'll, I'm not talking about opinion here......read the patrol histories as others have mentioned. It's fact. I'll say it again, the Japanese did not exercise strategic air superiority as any sort of doctrine in the Pacific. The land air force supported the army. It was primarily used as a tactical instrument.

Start Here:

http://www.amazon.com/United-States-...ef=pd_sim_b_13

http://www.amazon.com/Silent-Victory.../dp/155750217X

[vanjast]

Originally Posted by Bosje

i remember reading something about the British Admiralty deliberately NOT rerouting some convoys to make the germans think that enigma was still secure. (not that they were happy to sacrifice their merchants but they only rerouted convoys based on information which could have also been acquired through other means than enigma code breaking. something like that, anyway)

It's true that they sacrificed a convoy or 2 to keep the cover, but what they did do, as you mentioned above, with the cracked info, they'd send a reconnaisance plane out.
The purpose of this rec plane - to be spotted by the enemy task force or convoy - transmit like crazy on their radio, then hi-tail it home... Thus making the enemy think that they were spotted by these means. MEANWHILE there was a 'hit-squad waiting down the road' already. Further still the US Navy knew the destinations of the convoy/forces, so could arrange pre-recons backed up by the 'hit squad'.

Essentially the IJN was doomed to failure, as all their codes were cracked. The IJN25 code proved to be the most difficult and changed every 6 months or so. BUT it was cracked via the weaker codes as there was a heirarchy of code transmissions, as the message which started with IJN25 filtered their way down to the weaker codes, and so the code breakers built up a code base. - A very interesting book it is - based on recently unclassified info.

The book gives and example of the code and the mathmatical method of cracking it - A lot of maths (mainly statistics ) was used, and also 'gut feel' of their enemy, which they developed over time.
Wiki has a good starting point with all this info...

[Archive1]

May I bring this thread back to the other half of the original issues I brought up since this is related to sub ranges...and in this case to ones ability to modify those built in ranges?

"I can open the *.val and *.sim etc files but I cannot edit anything on the opened screen. Used to do so with GWX in SH3 without any problem, to adjust draft, wakes etc, but cannot figure out what I'm doing wrong here. Probably me, not the program. Maybe have to query the developer (name escapes me at present). Has anyone put together any tweak files for each sub so miniTweaker can be used? I think that question was asked a long time ago by someone, but I don't recall the answer."

I still cannot open and modify the *.val, etc files using S3D as I could in SH3. Anybody have an answer?

Originally Posted by Archive1

May I bring this thread back to the other half of the original issues I brought up since this is related to sub ranges...and in this case to ones ability to modify those built in ranges?

"I can open the *.val and *.sim etc files but I cannot edit anything on the opened screen. Used to do so with GWX in SH3 without any problem, to adjust draft, wakes etc, but cannot figure out what I'm doing wrong here. Probably me, not the program. Maybe have to query the developer (name escapes me at present). Has anyone put together any tweak files for each sub so miniTweaker can be used? I think that question was asked a long time ago by someone, but I don't recall the answer."

I still cannot open and modify the *.val, etc files using S3D as I could in SH3. Anybody have an answer?

here you go: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=119571

post there and you get all the info and instruction you need, if that dont do it then PM the creator of it "skwasjer" he will personally help you for sure but hes a busy man so it may be a day or so.

[vanjast]

Originally Posted by Archive1

I still cannot open and modify the *.val, etc files using S3D as I could in SH3. Anybody have an answer?

Do you mean, you cannot 'see the files' in the File Open dialog box - This might have something to do with the File of Type list at the bottom, or they do not open in S3D when you click on them, in the dialog box.

An alternative is to open S3D and Drag-n-Drop a file from the game folder onto S3D window, and see what happens !

[Rip]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

No, it's simply the percentage of fuel remaining that the game tells the player.

This is one of the things I brought up in the "what would you like" session at the 2008 subsim meeting. I would like gallons as well. Actually I would like an entire captain's midnight report. If I knew the gallons then I could perform calculation on mpg for every speed and anticipate the fuel required to make various transits at faster speeds. Sometimes I want to make a fast run to somewhere but never know if I will make it impossible to complete my return trip.