Accuracy of sub ranges

[Archive1]

Although the surfaced range of each sub appears to conform to historical numbers, it seems to me that in the sim the subs do not actually demonstrate a real range.

As an example: if one leaves Midway, runs surfaced only during night hours at ahead 1/3, dives appropriately from dawn to dusk, it takes almost 60% of fuel to reach the Truk area. There is no way to carry out the assigned mission with the fuel left and return to Midway. Certainly one would be in bad shape if one headed for the "off Japan" icon first...you'd be out of fuel and too far from a seconday base to refuel. From Truk one can get to an Australian or a nearby base to refuel and then return to the patrol. But historically US subs could go from Midway to the hunting grounds off Japan, remain on station a couple of weeks, and return to Midway without refueling. It seems something is wrong.

In GWX it was determined that the 'flat' sim map demanded abnormal fuel requirements from the real world amounts and the sub ranges were adjusted accordingly - I believe increased by about 20%.

My question: should the ranges in SH4 be similarly adjusted? I have looked at the "sub surfaced ranges" with S3D but cannot adjust the range as was possible in SH3 because the surfaced range number (as well as the submerged range number) cannot be 'opened' with S3d and edited. Yes one can select 'unlimited fuel' as a setup option, but I do not want to make that rather crude 'arcade' selection.

Any ideas anyone? Am I way off base here?

[claybirdd]

U.S. subs ran on the surface a LARGE majority of the time. unless avaoiding a detected aircraft or preparing for an attack.

[Orion2012]

Optimum Fuel isn't ahead 1/3 its around 9.5 knts.

Recharging batteries uses the same amount of fuel as running ahead flank.

[Archive1]

Thanks for the reply.

As I recall from reading patrol reports from US WWII, a sub's standard orders were to submerge at dawn and surface at night except for times when speed was critical. Maybe I remember incorrectly.

I will try the 9.5 knts. I do know that 'Ahead 2/3' was often more economical in SH3. I did not know that battery recharge was so fuel inefficient; maybe that's why the German subs did it at reduced speed by taking one prop off line. However, battery recharge is only part of the total submerged time.

But my two questions remain unanswered:

1. Has SH4 taken into consideration the conversion of great circle distances when the globe is presented as a flat map in the sim? And the further north you go the disparity increases.

2. How can one edit for each sub the *.val, *.sim, *.zon files with S3B if one cannot 'select' or 'open' the item one wants to edit? For example: surfaced range, submerged range or for that matter speed, draft etc, etc.

Originally Posted by claybirdd

U.S. subs ran on the surface a LARGE majority of the time. unless avaoiding a detected aircraft or preparing for an attack.

not true, japan ruled the skies in the pacific for quite a while so subs would never stay on the surface during the day untill way late in the war when japans air power was non existant, if even then.

archive1 is correct, a sub's standard orders were to submerge at dawn and surface only at night except for times when speed was critical or the situation dictated otherwise.

as to your question, yes the devs spent time to try and get the sim to run as close to realistic experiences as best they could but i would not go as far as to say documented results are in line with what you actually get in the game, but i think it is quite close.

you may be right about needing a tweak but lets see how the thread goes.

i personally think people are having so much fun modding things with the game that people havent been actually spending enough time endlessly playing it to work out all the small things that are not right.

[claybirdd]

my apolgies I have been corrected. I always thought they only surfaced at dawn when near enemy land masses with potential airfields.

[Orion2012]

Originally Posted by Archive1

Thanks for the reply.

As I recall from reading patrol reports from US WWII, a sub's standard orders were to submerge at dawn and surface at night except for times when speed was critical. Maybe I remember incorrectly.

I will try the 9.5 knts. I do know that 'Ahead 2/3' was often more economical in SH3. I did not know that battery recharge was so fuel inefficient; maybe that's why the German subs did it at reduced speed by taking one prop off line. However, battery recharge is only part of the total submerged time.

But my two questions remain unanswered:

1. Has SH4 taken into consideration the conversion of great circle distances when the globe is presented as a flat map in the sim? And the further north you go the disparity increases.

2. How can one edit for each sub the *.val, *.sim, *.zon files with S3B if one cannot 'select' or 'open' the item one wants to edit? For example: surfaced range, submerged range or for that matter speed, draft etc, etc.

No, were still dealing with a flat map and a flat game world.

I'm not sure I follow you in regards to S3D, I've never had a problem editing anything from the visual sensors to the MBT flood Time.

[Orion2012]

Originally Posted by Archive1

Thanks for the reply.

As I recall from reading patrol reports from US WWII, a sub's standard orders were to submerge at dawn and surface at night except for times when speed was critical. Maybe I remember incorrectly.

I will try the 9.5 knts. I do know that 'Ahead 2/3' was often more economical in SH3. I did not know that battery recharge was so fuel inefficient; maybe that's why the German subs did it at reduced speed by taking one prop off line. However, battery recharge is only part of the total submerged time.

But my two questions remain unanswered:

1. Has SH4 taken into consideration the conversion of great circle distances when the globe is presented as a flat map in the sim? And the further north you go the disparity increases.

2. How can one edit for each sub the *.val, *.sim, *.zon files with S3B if one cannot 'select' or 'open' the item one wants to edit? For example: surfaced range, submerged range or for that matter speed, draft etc, etc.

No, were still dealing with a flat map and a flat game world.

I'm not sure I follow you in regards to S3D, I've never had a problem editing anything from the visual sensors to the MBT flood Time.

[vanjast]

Using RFB1.5, I've never had a problem with fuel..
My settings: (from Pearl via Midway)
- 100% reality
- ~10 knots on surface, 1-2 knots submerged
- I only start submerging during the day from west of ~140 east (I think it is).
- Arrive off Okinawa with 75% fuel, leave Japan when at 25% fuel.
- On station, I scan areas during the day submerged - monitoring sonar.
At night ~10 knots on the surface until dawn, submerge and scan again.
If I feel I'm in a 'good' area, I cruise around in circles at 1 knot on the surface at night.

- On day contacts, p-scope depth - If I'm in a good position Attack, else 'tag' it till sunset then chase it on the surface. If it's going to fast I just leave it.

This method I've found gives me plensh time on station.

[gAiNiAc]

Just an FYI.........

I've never read anywhere that US subs had standing orders to submerge at dawn and surface at dusk.

US subs transitted on the surface to and from patrol areas.

[doulos05]

Originally Posted by gAiNiAc

Just an FYI.........

I've never read anywhere that US subs had standing orders to submerge at dawn and surface at dusk.

US subs transitted on the surface to and from patrol areas.

The war reports I have read specifically mention thinks like:

1115: SD Radar reports aerial contact, dove to periscope depth
1130: Surfaced
1213: Airplane spotted, identified as Betty. Dove to 120 ft. Splashes heard, no damage
1230: Surfaced
1243: Airplane Spotted. Dove to periscope depth. In order to reduce crew fatigue, we will spend the remainder of the day submerged. Made rotations for 3 knots.

That seems to indicate that, regardless of standard doctrine, US Sub skippers did run their boats on the surface during the day. Given the presence of SD radar, there's really no reason not to, since you will detect the plane 15-20 nm or more from your position, giving you plenty of time to go as deep as you like. While under a lot of air traffic, they probably would have run submerged during the day, I'd think they spent as long as possible on the surface making 9.5 knots.

[Rockin Robbins]

I inject my standard reply regarding running submerged all day. If you wanted to be relieved of command you did that. If you wanted to remain a sub captain you ran surfaced every second you could. Submarine stealth was an offensive weapon, not a device to hide from the enemy or render comfort for the crew. Read Fluckey's observations on Admiral Lockwood's views in Thunder Below. A huge percentage of captains were removed from command for non-performance. Lockwood did not tolerate shirkers.

Anyone interested can do a search for my posts on the subject. A World War II submarine is a surface ship that can submerge occasionally when it is absolutely necessary. Any other use of the machine will cause you to sink fewer targets, cost you too much fuel and cause the Admiral to carve you some new orfices if he allows you to keep your boat.

[vanjast]

Then again some US admirals of ww2 were known to have funny ideas of war... like not providing escorts for tankers on the eastern seaboard - The Second Happy Time

I wonder what they would have done, if you submerged during the day, racked up the tonnage coz you could hear a target on sonar at longer ranges than the radar, and survived the whole war... Actually they still would have relieved you, coz you proved them wrong :rotfl:

[gAiNiAc]

Originally Posted by vanjast

I wonder what they would have done, if you submerged during the day, racked up the tonnage coz you could hear a target on sonar at longer ranges than the radar

You wouldn't be able to intercept targets remaining submerged. No speed or endurance.

[gAiNiAc]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I inject my standard reply regarding running submerged all day. If you wanted to be relieved of command you did that. If you wanted to remain a sub captain you ran surfaced every second you could. Submarine stealth was an offensive weapon, not a device to hide from the enemy or render comfort for the crew. Read Fluckey's observations on Admiral Lockwood's views in Thunder Below. A huge percentage of captains were removed from command for non-performance. Lockwood did not tolerate shirkers.

Anyone interested can do a search for my posts on the subject. A World War II submarine is a surface ship that can submerge occasionally when it is absolutely necessary. Any other use of the machine will cause you to sink fewer targets, cost you too much fuel and cause the Admiral to carve you some new orfices if he allows you to keep your boat.

I've read all of Fluckey and O'Kanes stuff, as well as "Silent Service". No mention of standing orders to submerge during the day. The Pacific is far too vast. The Japanese never had air superiority over the Pacific nor did they have a large scale coordinated ASW effort like the aliies in the ATO.