'Reality'- Tonnage Totals in WWII

[PappyCain]

Otto Kretschmer
44 ships, 262,203 tons

Wolfgang Lüth
46 merchant ships, for 225,204 tons

Erich Topp
34 merchant ships with 197,233 tons

Heinrich Liebe
34 merchant ships for 187,267 tons

Viktor Schütze
35 merchant ships for 180,073 tons

Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock
24 merchant ships for 170,237 tons

Karl-Friedrich Merten
27 merchant ships for 170,151 tons

Herbert Schultze
26 merchant ships for 169,709 tons

Günther Prien
30 merchant ships for 162,768 tons

Georg Lassen
26 ships for 156,082 tons


I am seeing 100 and 200 thousand tons posted in a single 'patrol' ..

[Brag]

Though, not many, there have been some huge tonnage patrols. Otto Kretchmer's is one. I think it was over 200,000 tons.

One of the factors in this game is that a kaleun even when killed does not lose the experience learned.

In my case, I got killed a bunch of times while playing stock. Once GWX arrived, I had to re-start the Balz career three times, So, even in 1940, Balz is a super experienced submariner. Even with the new difficulties of GWX 2.1, he still gets high tonnages per patrol.

[Letum]

The arm chair Klauen is more experienced, takes more risks and is more aggressive.

That explains it in part.


Although I have never got over a 50k patrol (VIIC only).

[Brag]

Originally Posted by Letum

The arm chair Klauen is more experienced, takes more risks and is more aggressive.

That explains it in part.


Although I have never got over a 50k patrol (VIIC only).

Yuppers

[GoldenRivet]

realism settings has a lot to do with it.

I promise you if i shut off manual targeting, I would be returning to port with 200K+ every time. even in 1944 - 1945

with my current realism setting at 100% my results vary, one patrol could earn me 8K tons, another could earn me 50K while another still might earn only one kill.

[GoldenRivet]

agreed

and as i have said before.... its staggering to look at the number of U-boats that went out, and never fired a single shot before being sunk.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

agreed

and as i have said before.... its staggering to look at the number of U-boats that went out, and never fired a single shot before being sunk.

Gah! I'm having one of those patrols right now.

[meduza]

I'd say Brag's right: we are getting too experienced and too good .
The RL kaleuns did not had a chance to complete as many patrols as we do. For example, Otto Kretschmer sunk 266000 tons in 16 patrols, which is about 16000 per patrol. When I started to play, this tonnage would be quite a success. Now, after completing God knows how many careers, I'm not satisfied if I come home with less than 75000.

BTW, the most successful patrol was the one of the Gunther Hessler, when he sunk 86000 tons, commanding Type IXB U-107 in spring '41.

Part of the problem is that SH3 counts warship tonnage the same as merchant tonnage which is entirely inaccurate in my opinion. Warships were typically measured in displacement tonnage of which there are a number of variables (Light, Full Load, Normal, Maximum and several others depending on the nation of registry) or deadweight tonnage, a measure of the actual weight of the ship but also generally including a number of variables.

A Gross Registered Ton (GRT) as it applied to merchant ships was actually a measure of interior volume of the potential revenue earning spaces within the hull and not a weight or displacement measurement at all.

Sometimes, other rules may be applied to tankers which are by definition, mostly empty space.

Combining displacement with GRT is comparing apples to hamburgers, a warship cannot have a gross registered tonnage since she has no potential revenue spaces and displacement is meaningless to a merchant since it would be mostly dependent on the weight of the cargo carried.

The USN lumped the two values together for scoring Pacific kills though, hence USS Archerfish tops the single patrol high-score list with her one kill, the aircraft carrier Shinano but comes in only 25th in total tonnage sunk. SH4 reflects this USN policy correctly.

As far as I can tell, the Germans counted warships seperately from merchants for credit and awards. It would have been nice if SH3 had done the same.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

As far as I can tell, the Germans counted warships seperately from merchants for credit and awards. It would have been nice if SH3 had done the same.

I think you're right on that. PappyCain's link to the U-Boat Aces sight shows a total for Kretschmer, but U-Boat.Net shows separate totals:
http://uboat.net/men/kretschmer.htm

[BasilY]

The way I see it, there are a number of factors that make a player in SH3 more successful than a real uboat skipper;

Historical Hintsight:
- Experience accumulated from previous carreers. We don't forget what we learned after "death".
- We know when the Allies will have new weapon systems against us, (such as Hodgehog). We can ask fellow players as to how to be ready for it before they are deployed.
- The scripted actions of various operations and entrance to war are known to us.
- The weakness of most ships are known to us through trial and error in many carreers.

Ship Availability:
- Convoys are more frequent in SH3/GWX2.1, A convoy sail almost very day in SH3 (correct me if I am wrong) where as in the real war, they sailed less often. In SH3/GWX2.1 I will surely meet at least 1 convoy if I want to attack convoys.
- Ships are larger. way too many whale factory ships, and ore carriers roaming arround.
- No fellow uboats taking your kills.
- Single ships and convoys did not avoid an area of suspect/recent u-boat activity, as they historically do. (So players can stay in high traffic areas attacking passer-by)
- Way too many single ships, even late in the war in GWX2.1 in a number of coastal areas. (though the number of destroyer patrols increased as well)
- Too many Task forces parading along predictable routes in SH3 for the player's pleasure. (Hebrides for example)

AI Behavior:
- A convoy stayed on course, even after an attack or after all escorts are sunk
- DD dehaved the same, even if that very behavior (circle back) frequently lead to death.
- DDs did not co-operate well when more than 2 destroyers are attacking you.
- AI did not actively hunt a player down after near coast attacks with good coordination. (Hunter/killer task forces in SH3 aren't very effective)
- Let's face it, AI just aren't as good as humans when it comes to learning from mistakes and adjusting to changing situations.

Other Game Design factors:
- More time at sea:
a. In SH3 we spent fewer days in base between patrols.
b. In the real world, a successful captain, like Brandi and Luth, are promoted to land-based command/training positions.
c. Magic carpet allow player to spend all torps before turning for home. There is no risk of a hostile encounter when returning home without ammo.
- In SH3, a uboat can't be spotted from the air if we are at P-depth with parascope down. In the real world, a plane directly overhead can spot you just fine.
- Even allowing duds in the games, the torpedos are far more reliable than the historical truth early war. And we know from the start to use impact shots instead of magnatic shots.

[Task Force]

The way ive gotten my tonnage is through experience, and agressivness. I use every torpedo,shell,AA round on my boat before going in to base. The main reason Real skippers didnt have as much tunnahe as we do is because they can realy be killed, when we are killed, all that happens is a screen that gives are tonnage, and U boat distroyed.

[Task Force]

Jeezum at that scale of tonnage on 'one patrol' 100-200-300 tons what are folks racking up for the entire war? a million tons?

Im working on it and I am half way there(currently its 1940). Ive also never lost a crew member, and dont go on long patroals, just quick agressive patroals

I generally do snorkel patrols in 1944-45 (GWX-2.1) starting with a green randomized crew and a Type VIIC operating inshore off the British Isles as they did in the 11th Flotilla.

Returning to base at all is great. Returning with 10,000 tons is fantastic. Returning with 20,000 tons or more is... well I don't know what it would be like since have never managed to do it (so far).

If it was supposed to be easy, it wouldn't be any fun.

[Sailor Steve]

I think BasilY's summary is just about perfect. There are a number of reasons why is game will never reflect real life, and he hit them just about perfectly.

For myself I try to play like a real captain. Not using external views is a big part of it. The uncertainty of not knowing what's going on outside makes a huge difference. A realism mod like any of the big three supermods makes a difference as well. Any game is going to be easier than real life when you can just reload or start a new career. If 'Dead is Dead' isn't enough, try this to make you sweat: "Dead is dead, and if I die I don't touch the game for a year." And no, I don't do that, even though I haven't played in a couple of years anyway.

Originally Posted by PappyCain

Lemme see if I get this right. When one gets killed they just keep on going? I was under the impression you started from 1939 again, with anew Kaleun and crew not pick up where you left off. (respawn)

It is possible to reload the same career, but that isn't 'Dead is Dead'. The game lets you start a new career at the beginning of each year up through 1943, and SH3 Commander lets you start a career at the beginning of any month of the war.

I run several careers concurrently, one from each flotilla. If one dies, or retires, I start a new career from that flotilla at the first of the next month. I'm cautious when I must be, aggressive when I think I can get away with it, and my tonnage totals seem to be in line with what you got from an average kaleun. I just keep pretending it's real and keep my crew's well being at the front of my mind.