Next President of the United States - Page 6

DeepIron · 09-05-08, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Clinton will gloat and say, "I told you so" and run again in 2012.

Clinton vs. Palin in 2012: Don't Miss the Cat Fight of the Century!

Tchocky · 09-05-08, 02:39 PM

VP has to be two things

1 - Ready to take command of the nation at a moments notice. This may be in a state of extreme emergency or confusion.
2 - Beneficial to the ticket.

Regarding Palin, I don't think anyone can make a convincing argument that she's got the requisite familiarity with the apparatus of government. It's worth remembering John McCain's physical state and age. This isn't about being a Washington "insider" or not, it's about knowing immediately what to do and who to talk to. What helps here is a sense of cooperation and compromise. I'm not sure Biden has this, and going on her convention speech, Palin certainly doesn't.

Oh, and is it really beneficial for the VP pick to be dominating the ticket as Palin is now? just a thought.

EDIT - Another thought - will Biden or Palin continue the huge expanse of power and secrecy of the VP office begun by Cheney? Or will the role be phased back to the bucket of spit?

Onkel Neal · 09-05-08, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Regarding Palin, I don't think anyone can make a convincing argument that she's got the requisite familiarity with the apparatus of government.

As a big state governor, she has more familiarity with executive administrations than Obama, and his disciples are setting him up to be President, not VP.

Tchocky · 09-05-08, 02:59 PM

Not disciples, the Democratic Party. It's official by now :p

The familiarity I'm talking about is really of a national kind, a safe pair of hands for insurance. Even relative newcomers like JFK or GWB pick solid, permanent ffixtures like Lyndon Johnson or Cheney. One of America's most active policy areas is foreign policy, and Palin has zero familiarity with any of it. Zero. Obama has at least got legislative experience with the issue, and has expressed substantive opinions.
Having a total newcomer in the emergency seat is unsettling when considering foreign policy/terrorism/war. If Republicans are going to keep waving the bloody shirt about 9/11 they've got to think about Life imitating Bad Campaigning.

The argument over executive experience is messy and strange. There's no quantification of what "executive experience" is supposed to mean, with those making the argument falling back on the sheer amount of time spent at it.

DeepIron · 09-05-08, 03:00 PM

Personally, I don't think either of them have the prerequisite experience for the offices that they have been nominated for.

Obama is a "first term" senator who hasn't even had the luxury/trauma/opportunity to be re-elected for a second term by his own constituents let alone the "national mob" of US voters. All he knows is that he wants to instigate "change"? Well, what the heck is that? AND.... how is he going to garner support to bring about his "change" NOW... when Americans need it the most. At best, Obama spends 4 years in "job training" and hopefully things don't deteriorate much further...

Palin, while she may be adequate for Alaskan needs (and I'm originally from Alaska so I know a bit about it's politics) she's been managing a huge piece of real estate with a very small population. Sure, theres a huge amount of Federal bureaucracy in AK but she's not interfacing to it directly... Not to mention that bringing the "Alaskan style" of political wrangling to WashDC isn't going to make her too many friends IMO... Telling someone to "suck my oosik" is just, well, baffling (at first)...

Digital_Trucker · 09-05-08, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

About "executive experience" :

Quote:

Palin's put-down of Obama that he lacks executive experience (unlike her own superior Mean Girl self) makes it sound as though she had run something bigger than he had. But Obama has been head of a political campaign with hundreds of thousands of workers and volunteers. Doesn't a campaign head organize people and give orders and plan strategy and tactics, i.e., act in an executive capacity? Isn't that what Barack Obama has been doing for two years and hasn't he proven that he is an excellent executive in this endeavor? Only 114,000 or so people voted to make Palin governor in 2006. In contrast, Obama's executive performance as head of his presidential campaign garnered him 18 million votes.

Not very balanced but something to think about.

I wonder what those numbers would work out to as a percentage of total voters in the two cases? I hate numbers that are "out of context", so to speak.:hmm:

Digital_Trucker · 09-05-08, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digital_Trucker

I wonder what those numbers would work out to as a percentage of total voters in the two cases? I hate numbers that are "out of context", so to speak.:hmm:

Ok then let's consider only that part :

Quote:

Palin's put-down of Obama that he lacks executive experience (unlike her own superior Mean Girl self) makes it sound as though she had run something bigger than he had. But Obama has been head of a political campaign with hundreds of thousands of workers and volunteers. Doesn't a campaign head organize people and give orders and plan strategy and tactics, i.e., act in an executive capacity? Isn't that what Barack Obama has been doing for two years and hasn't he proven that he is an excellent executive in this endeavor?

But Obama isn't a campaign head, he pays someone to do it for him. He does not have to make financial decisions regarding how to spend the millions of dollars that are being contributed, his campaign managers do it for him. He probably doesn't even make decisions on strategy and tactics, either, he has strategists telling him what will get him elected and what won't.

DeepIron · 09-05-08, 04:09 PM

Quote:

A president doesn't do everything by himself either, so the ability to pick the right people is the key IMO.

Yeah, look at Bush. He picked all the "right people" and they're going to leave him holding the "sh*tbag of history" for all the cr*p they did while running his administration...

Digital_Trucker · 09-05-08, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digital_Trucker

But Obama isn't a campaign head, he pays someone to do it for him. He does not have to make financial decisions regarding how to spend the millions of dollars that are being contributed, his campaign managers do it for him. He probably doesn't even make decisions on strategy and tactics, either, he has strategists telling him what will get him elected and what won't.

Sure thing, but what you're describing here is just the way big companys work. Of course "little hands" do most of the job, but they didn't just hire themselves, someone had to choose them for their qualities. If they're succesful then it means their boss knows how to run his thing. He's the driver, you don't expect him to hand stickers in the streets, but to make wise choise and pick the right people to help him. A president doesn't do everything by himself either, so the ability to pick the right people is the key IMO.

We could go around and around for days about what is or isn't "Executive" experience. When he has to debate, without a script and a teleprompter and previous knowledge of the questions, we'll see how knowledgeable he is. I'm betting we're gonna a hear a lot more "Uh, you know, yes we can" than we care to.

Carotio · 09-05-08, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Here it is, the official Subsim presidential poll. Who do you think will be the next President of the United States? Not necessarily who you want to be President, but if you had to bet a steak lunch, who you think will actually win.

Difficult to say, since the medias report about 50-50, with one week in fervor of the one, and the next week of the second.
But with McCains choice of Palin as VP candidate, he may have shot himself in the foot, giving advantage to Obama/Biden regarding the voters not yet decided.

How about another (offical subsim) poll:

Who would you vote for?

1) Obama/Biden US-citizen
2) McCain/Palin US-citizen

3) Obama/Biden non-US-citizen
4) McCain/Palin non-US-citizen

5) Undecided, both US and non-US-citizens

Takeda Shingen · 09-06-08, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

As a big state governor, she has more familiarity with executive administrations than Obama, and his disciples are setting him up to be President, not VP.

Yes, but either Biden or Palin would be little more than a heartbeat away from the Presidency. It is not pleasant to say, but given McCain's age and medical history, this is a much greater concern than it is for the younger and healthier Obama.

Alaska is certainly ranked first in geographic area, but 47th in populace, so it's hardly Texas, California or the states of the northeast. I'd venture to say that it's more than a leap from management of a tiny state to Commander in Chief of the free world. She's also been in the job for less than two years. Prior to this, she was clearly in the pocket of special interest, even going as far to support the infamous 'Bridge to Nowhere'. This flies in the face what had been one of McCain's strongest hallmarks: The defiance of special interest. Perhaps some more time should have been spent in the vetting process, as Palin continues to appear an increasingly odd selection as her background is explored.

The McCain campaign's most successful attacks on Obama have been in regard to his lack of experience. Palin's selection, although pleasing to the base of the party, has now rendered that strategy obsolete. This is compounded by the fact that neither party's base will be the determining factor in this election, and the selection of Governor Palin has not seemed to have impressed the moderates and independents that will determine the outcome.

TDK1044 · 09-06-08, 09:08 AM

I think the introduction of Sarah Palin has altered the dynamic of the race. I think the outcome has gone from being a certain Obama victory to a race that's now too close to call.

As for the argument about Palin being only a heartbeat away from the presidency. Big deal. So was Dan Quale. The reality is that a good President surrounds himself with very smart, astute people, and looks to them for guidance. The notion that the President makes all the decisions is inaccurate.

Look to who the Chief Of Staff will be for each candidate. That position is more important than the VP.

geetrue · 09-06-08, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDK1044

I think the introduction of Sarah Palin has altered the dynamic of the race. I think the outcome has gone from being a certain Obama victory to a race that's now too close to call.

CNN (which is prejudice for Obama by the way) couldn't have said it better.

Konovalov · 09-06-08, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

As a big state governor, she has more familiarity with executive administrations than Obama, and his disciples are setting him up to be President, not VP.

Yes, but either Biden or Palin would be little more than a heartbeat away from the Presidency. It is not pleasant to say, but given McCain's age and medical history, this is a much greater concern than it is for the younger and healthier Obama.

Alaska is certainly ranked first in geographic area, but 47th in populace, so it's hardly Texas, California or the states of the northeast. I'd venture to say that it's more than a leap from management of a tiny state to Commander in Chief of the free world. She's also been in the job for less than two years. Prior to this, she was clearly in the pocket of special interest, even going as far to support the infamous 'Bridge to Nowhere'. This flies in the face what had been one of McCain's strongest hallmarks: The defiance of special interest. Perhaps some more time should have been spent in the vetting process, as Palin continues to appear an increasingly odd selection as her background is explored.

The McCain campaign's most successful attacks on Obama have been in regard to his lack of experience. Palin's selection, although pleasing to the base of the party, has now rendered that strategy obsolete. This is compounded by the fact that neither party's base will be the determining factor in this election, and the selection of Governor Palin has not seemed to have impressed the moderates and independents that will determine the outcome.

Good post Tak.

I can't see how Palin is going to win over many Hillary Clinton supporters with her extreme righ to life views such as being against abortion even in the case of rape or incest. Time will tell if Palin is nothing more than a one hit wonder. :hmm:

One thing is for sure and that is that this election campaign has really had some curve balls thrown in it.

TDK1044 · 09-06-08, 11:15 AM

Sarah Palin actually doesn't need disgruntled Hillary voters. She's attracting a lot of the undecided voters who don't want more of the same, but who are worried about Obama's lack of experience. Those are the voters who decide elections.

Who knows, we may see a presidential race between Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin 8 years down the line.

View Poll Results: Who do you think will be the next President of the United States?
Obama/Biden	80	56.74%
McCain/Palin	61	43.26%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll

09-05-08, 02:39 PM	#77
Tchocky Navy Seal Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5,874 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	VP has to be two things 1 - Ready to take command of the nation at a moments notice. This may be in a state of extreme emergency or confusion. 2 - Beneficial to the ticket. Regarding Palin, I don't think anyone can make a convincing argument that she's got the requisite familiarity with the apparatus of government. It's worth remembering John McCain's physical state and age. This isn't about being a Washington "insider" or not, it's about knowing immediately what to do and who to talk to. What helps here is a sense of cooperation and compromise. I'm not sure Biden has this, and going on her convention speech, Palin certainly doesn't. Oh, and is it really beneficial for the VP pick to be dominating the ticket as Palin is now? just a thought. EDIT - Another thought - will Biden or Palin continue the huge expanse of power and secrecy of the VP office begun by Cheney? Or will the role be phased back to the bucket of spit? __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

09-05-08, 02:59 PM	#79
Tchocky Navy Seal Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5,874 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Not disciples, the Democratic Party. It's official by now :p The familiarity I'm talking about is really of a national kind, a safe pair of hands for insurance. Even relative newcomers like JFK or GWB pick solid, permanent ffixtures like Lyndon Johnson or Cheney. One of America's most active policy areas is foreign policy, and Palin has zero familiarity with any of it. Zero. Obama has at least got legislative experience with the issue, and has expressed substantive opinions. Having a total newcomer in the emergency seat is unsettling when considering foreign policy/terrorism/war. If Republicans are going to keep waving the bloody shirt about 9/11 they've got to think about Life imitating Bad Campaigning. The argument over executive experience is messy and strange. There's no quantification of what "executive experience" is supposed to mean, with those making the argument falling back on the sheer amount of time spent at it. __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

09-05-08, 03:00 PM	#80
DeepIron Sea Lord Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Too far from the Pacific right now... Posts: 1,634 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Personally, I don't think either of them have the prerequisite experience for the offices that they have been nominated for. Obama is a "first term" senator who hasn't even had the luxury/trauma/opportunity to be re-elected for a second term by his own constituents let alone the "national mob" of US voters. All he knows is that he wants to instigate "change"? Well, what the heck is that? AND.... how is he going to garner support to bring about his "change" NOW... when Americans need it the most. At best, Obama spends 4 years in "job training" and hopefully things don't deteriorate much further... Palin, while she may be adequate for Alaskan needs (and I'm originally from Alaska so I know a bit about it's politics) she's been managing a huge piece of real estate with a very small population. Sure, theres a huge amount of Federal bureaucracy in AK but she's not interfacing to it directly... Not to mention that bringing the "Alaskan style" of political wrangling to WashDC isn't going to make her too many friends IMO... Telling someone to "suck my oosik" is just, well, baffling (at first)... __________________ RFB / RSRDC Beta Tester RFB / RSRDC Modding Forum: http://forum.kickinbak.com/index.php RFB Top Post link: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=125529 RFB Loadout: RFB_V1.52_102408: RFB_V1.52_Patch_111608: RSRDC_RFBv15_V396

09-06-08, 09:08 AM	#87
TDK1044 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 2,674 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	I think the introduction of Sarah Palin has altered the dynamic of the race. I think the outcome has gone from being a certain Obama victory to a race that's now too close to call. As for the argument about Palin being only a heartbeat away from the presidency. Big deal. So was Dan Quale. The reality is that a good President surrounds himself with very smart, astute people, and looks to them for guidance. The notion that the President makes all the decisions is inaccurate. Look to who the Chief Of Staff will be for each candidate. That position is more important than the VP.

09-06-08, 11:15 AM	#90
TDK1044 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 2,674 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Sarah Palin actually doesn't need disgruntled Hillary voters. She's attracting a lot of the undecided voters who don't want more of the same, but who are worried about Obama's lack of experience. Those are the voters who decide elections. Who knows, we may see a presidential race between Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin 8 years down the line.