Are Japanese destoyers too good at detecting your sub??

Orion2012 · 07-20-08, 01:21 PM

I too have experienced the same problem, I generally try and put myself in a postition where I expect the convoy to cross, like you said at about a 45AOB, once the front ship in the convoy, not the DD, are within a bout 5000 yards I'll come up and begin taking meansurments and setting up my shoots. At this point its a crap shoot, I've had them start the active sonar as soon as I rise above the thermal, and then I've had 6 out of 6 hit before they even began evasive manuvers.

LeeVanSpliff · 07-20-08, 01:47 PM

This might be quite stupid as I don't use map contact updates and my experience with convoys (in SH4) has been collected from a periscope/hydrophone point of view.

However, I think there is a gap between the escorts that mostly stay around the side and the escort that stays ahead of the convoy - if you wait to the side of the convoy I often manage to slip closer after the first destroyer is past and before the second shows up. Needless to say this also goes wrong sometimes and they pick me up.

Hey let me just illustrate what I mean with an ugly picture:

Rockin Robbins · 07-20-08, 01:58 PM

What part of the war are you in? Are you using Trigger Maru? I hear Japanese escorts in Trigger Maru have Superman aboard. Sure seems like it sometimes.

If you're using Trigger Maru, remember that the mod is not to make the game more realistic, although it often does just that. Trigger Maru's prime directive is to make SH4 more challenging. You're not going to get any 100,000 ton cruises. 50,000 is kind of out of reach unless you find the right ships. Escorted convoys may be able to fight you off without you being able to make a single shot on the protected merchies.

It's sort of like a pitching duel in baseball. Or like a soccer (yuck!) game. To the uninitiated, these are just plain tedious. To those who have immersed themselves in the lore of the respective games, it's all exciting. I enjoy taking on the escorted convoy, knowing that my first approach often won't get me near the merchies.

I'm waiting for the escorts to detect me so I can group them all together on top of me. I'm hoping that one will peel off, shut down the engines and use their sound gear to vector in the others, because when they think they've got me, I'm coming up to peiscope depth set for point and shoot to send the sneaky one to Davy Jones' Locker with a single shot.

I've attacked at sundown so I can pull out, do another end around to the other side of the convoy, hoping the excorts are still bunched up on the side of the original attack, looking for me. Well, they're about to find me by tracing the explosions I'm about to make on their precious merchies!

I've made four separate attacks on the same convoy during a night, leaving nothing but a couple of escorts with nothing left to guard when the sun came up. The battle goes for hours and hours of real time, almost as long as the game time. Make a mistake and you're deadl Don't get greedy. Know when to hold 'em. Know when to fold 'em. And know when to run away, for you'll be doing all those things in the course of the night.

I wouldn't want it any other way.

ddiplock · 07-20-08, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

What part of the war are you in? Are you using Trigger Maru? I hear Japanese escorts in Trigger Maru have Superman aboard. Sure seems like it sometimes.

If you're using Trigger Maru, remember that the mod is not to make the game more realistic, although it often does just that. Trigger Maru's prime directive is to make SH4 more challenging. You're not going to get any 100,000 ton cruises. 50,000 is kind of out of reach unless you find the right ships. Escorted convoys may be able to fight you off without you being able to make a single shot on the protected merchies.

It's sort of like a pitching duel in baseball. Or like a soccer (yuck!) game. To the uninitiated, these are just plain tedious. To those who have immersed themselves in the lore of the respective games, it's all exciting. I enjoy taking on the escorted convoy, knowing that my first approach often won't get me near the merchies.

I'm waiting for the escorts to detect me so I can group them all together on top of me. I'm hoping that one will peel off, shut down the engines and use their sound gear to vector in the others, because when they think they've got me, I'm coming up to peiscope depth set for point and shoot to send the sneaky one to Davy Jones' Locker with a single shot.

I've attacked at sundown so I can pull out, do another end around to the other side of the convoy, hoping the excorts are still bunched up on the side of the original attack, looking for me. Well, they're about to find me by tracing the explosions I'm about to make on their precious merchies!

I've made four separate attacks on the same convoy during a night, leaving nothing but a couple of escorts with nothing left to guard when the sun came up. The battle goes for hours and hours of real time, almost as long as the game time. Make a mistake and you're deadl Don't get greedy. Know when to hold 'em. Know when to fold 'em. And know when to run away, for you'll be doing all those things in the course of the night.

I wouldn't want it any other way.

Yeah, I am using Trigger Maru. I enjoy a challenge as much as the next person, but it happens EVERY single time virtually and it can be really annoying

I agree with you about the Jap destroyers having superman onboard...he's able to hear all!!!

I'll keep on trying, and if that fails, i'll have to practice longer range shots.

Seminole · 07-20-08, 02:56 PM

The Japs never seem to find me if I drop below a thermal (always seems to be one handy thank goodness) , run at 1 or 2 knots and keep turns to less than 20 degrees.

Silent running doesn't really seem to matter much...but I do it anyway.

If you are trying to get into a convoy or task force stay silent and deep. Your sub can come back to periscope depth very quicky in SH4. In SH3 it was an agonizingly slow process with the targets often passing by,and out of range, before you made it up to shoot.

And if you master the sonar shooting technique..which I have not as yet...you don't even need to come all the way to periscope depth.

ddiplock · 07-20-08, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seminole

The Japs never seem to find me if I drop below a thermal (always seems to be one handy thank goodness) , run at 1 or 2 knots and keep turns to less than 20 degrees.

Silent running doesn't really seem to matter much...but I do it anyway.

If you are trying to get into a convoy or task force stay silent and deep. Your sub can come back to periscope depth very quicky in SH4. In SH3 it was an agonizingly slow process with the targets often passing by,and out of range, before you made it up to shoot.

And if you master the sonar shooting technique..which I have not as yet...you don't even need to come all the way to periscope depth.

Well that's one thing i'm thinking of doing whenever I am moving into a firing position on a convoy or TF. Dive deep, and use hydrophones to listen to them and track their positions. Then when I'm in my desired range and hopefully past the screening escorts, slowly rise upto PD and make a solution, fire, and then dive deep.

Chances are it wouldn't be long before i'd be detected at PD based on past experience

Orion2012 · 07-20-08, 08:30 PM

This is from the TMO FAQ:

10.) The AI is too hard!!!

Go to this file again.

/data/cfg/sim.cfg

and change the Hydrophone Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation from 2 to 3. Then change the sonar Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation from 3 to 5. Easy mode and dumber AI should be yours again.

Seminole · 07-20-08, 08:37 PM

It really works for me. Since I've been doing it this way that lead destroyer just goes sailing along like hes on moonlight bay....not a care in the world.

Before, I always saw that masthead light pop on and here he would come. Collision course. Splash...splash..splash...

Only thing is ...if you are doing manual targeting forget getting AOBs, ranges, speeds and all that for those perfect periscope solution shots. (well unless you are a heck of lot faster than I am ) You have to have your tubes set for dead ahead shots and lead your targets like shooting birds with a shotgun...which is okay too since this way I can take out 2 maybe 3 targets....before I head back down into the deep.

If I were doing the full manual calculations then I would be lucky to get one from a convoy....and most likely I would get clobbered before I was even halfway ready to shoot.

Frederf · 07-21-08, 03:18 AM

The problem for when DD's detect you at 0 kts, silent running is that the DD's active sonar detection cone is on all the time, even when they aren't actively using sonar. As soon as you wander into a place where you would be detected if the enemy DD decides to ping you, he will automatically decide at that second to turn on his sonar and ping you for no reason.

And there you are, detected by the DD. It's a poor modeling of DD behavior in all versions of SH3/SH4. Treat all DDs as if they are pinging all the time, even if they aren't.

07-20-08, 01:47 PM	#2
LeeVanSpliff Machinist's Mate Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 127 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	This might be quite stupid as I don't use map contact updates and my experience with convoys (in SH4) has been collected from a periscope/hydrophone point of view. However, I think there is a gap between the escorts that mostly stay around the side and the escort that stays ahead of the convoy - if you wait to the side of the convoy I often manage to slip closer after the first destroyer is past and before the second shows up. Needless to say this also goes wrong sometimes and they pick me up. Hey let me just illustrate what I mean with an ugly picture: __________________ "I'll rant as well as thou." Hamlet, Act 5, Scene 1

07-20-08, 01:58 PM	#3
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	What part of the war are you in? Are you using Trigger Maru? I hear Japanese escorts in Trigger Maru have Superman aboard. Sure seems like it sometimes. If you're using Trigger Maru, remember that the mod is not to make the game more realistic, although it often does just that. Trigger Maru's prime directive is to make SH4 more challenging. You're not going to get any 100,000 ton cruises. 50,000 is kind of out of reach unless you find the right ships. Escorted convoys may be able to fight you off without you being able to make a single shot on the protected merchies. It's sort of like a pitching duel in baseball. Or like a soccer (yuck!) game. To the uninitiated, these are just plain tedious. To those who have immersed themselves in the lore of the respective games, it's all exciting. I enjoy taking on the escorted convoy, knowing that my first approach often won't get me near the merchies. I'm waiting for the escorts to detect me so I can group them all together on top of me. I'm hoping that one will peel off, shut down the engines and use their sound gear to vector in the others, because when they think they've got me, I'm coming up to peiscope depth set for point and shoot to send the sneaky one to Davy Jones' Locker with a single shot. I've attacked at sundown so I can pull out, do another end around to the other side of the convoy, hoping the excorts are still bunched up on the side of the original attack, looking for me. Well, they're about to find me by tracing the explosions I'm about to make on their precious merchies! I've made four separate attacks on the same convoy during a night, leaving nothing but a couple of escorts with nothing left to guard when the sun came up. The battle goes for hours and hours of real time, almost as long as the game time. Make a mistake and you're deadl Don't get greedy. Know when to hold 'em. Know when to fold 'em. And know when to run away, for you'll be doing all those things in the course of the night. I wouldn't want it any other way. __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

07-20-08, 02:56 PM	#5
Seminole Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,012 Downloads: 102 Uploads: 0	The Japs never seem to find me if I drop below a thermal (always seems to be one handy thank goodness) , run at 1 or 2 knots and keep turns to less than 20 degrees. Silent running doesn't really seem to matter much...but I do it anyway. If you are trying to get into a convoy or task force stay silent and deep. Your sub can come back to periscope depth very quicky in SH4. In SH3 it was an agonizingly slow process with the targets often passing by,and out of range, before you made it up to shoot. And if you master the sonar shooting technique..which I have not as yet...you don't even need to come all the way to periscope depth. __________________

07-20-08, 08:37 PM	#8
Seminole Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,012 Downloads: 102 Uploads: 0	It really works for me. Since I've been doing it this way that lead destroyer just goes sailing along like hes on moonlight bay....not a care in the world. Before, I always saw that masthead light pop on and here he would come. Collision course. Splash...splash..splash... Only thing is ...if you are doing manual targeting forget getting AOBs, ranges, speeds and all that for those perfect periscope solution shots. (well unless you are a heck of lot faster than I am ) You have to have your tubes set for dead ahead shots and lead your targets like shooting birds with a shotgun...which is okay too since this way I can take out 2 maybe 3 targets....before I head back down into the deep. If I were doing the full manual calculations then I would be lucky to get one from a convoy....and most likely I would get clobbered before I was even halfway ready to shoot. __________________

07-20-08, 01:21 PM	#1
Orion2012 Commodore Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 611 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I too have experienced the same problem, I generally try and put myself in a postition where I expect the convoy to cross, like you said at about a 45AOB, once the front ship in the convoy, not the DD, are within a bout 5000 yards I'll come up and begin taking meansurments and setting up my shoots. At this point its a crap shoot, I've had them start the active sonar as soon as I rise above the thermal, and then I've had 6 out of 6 hit before they even began evasive manuvers.

07-20-08, 08:30 PM	#7
Orion2012 Commodore Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 611 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	This is from the TMO FAQ: 10.) The AI is too hard!!! Go to this file again. /data/cfg/sim.cfg and change the Hydrophone Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation from 2 to 3. Then change the sonar Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation from 3 to 5. Easy mode and dumber AI should be yours again.

07-21-08, 03:18 AM	#9
Frederf Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 665 Downloads: 79 Uploads: 1	The problem for when DD's detect you at 0 kts, silent running is that the DD's active sonar detection cone is on all the time, even when they aren't actively using sonar. As soon as you wander into a place where you would be detected if the enemy DD decides to ping you, he will automatically decide at that second to turn on his sonar and ping you for no reason. And there you are, detected by the DD. It's a poor modeling of DD behavior in all versions of SH3/SH4. Treat all DDs as if they are pinging all the time, even if they aren't.