Biggest differences between RFB and TMO?

[Ducimus]

After i update TM, the ASW difficulty will be a marked difference im guessing. I spent 30 mins trying to evade 3 destroyers i had set up in a test mission in 1/42. I had to shut my system down cause i was running late for work. No time to complete that test run.

At any rate, RFB is about 100% historical accuracy.

Im about 75% historical accuracy and 25% gameplay... gameplay leaning on increasing the challenge level a bit. While some items that are frustrating, (such as dud torpedos), are modded into the game, but aren't as aggressively pursued to 100% accuracy goal, but just shy of that.

Thats really all there is to say.

[Rockin Robbins]

If you ask a WWII sub sailor what realism was, their description will come much closer to Trigger Maru than RFB.

REMEMBER THIS USS BERGALL?

On the evening of Dec. 13, 1944 as Bergall (Hyde) was preparing to plant mines off Indo-China, she picked up a distant radar contact. Closing to 26,000 yards, the contact was tentatively identified as 2 cruisers, later determined to be a cruiser and destroyer escort. After attaining a firing position 3300 yards away from the overlapping targets, six bow tubes were fired. Moments later a tremendous explosion occurred, seemingly, breaking the Imperial Japanese heavy Myoku in two. Hauling clear to reload when the escort seemed reluctant to attack, Bergalll charged in for a second attack when, at 9000 yards, the escorting destroyer opened fire, one shell landing in Bergall's wake, another directly into her forward torpedo loading hatch, opening a large hole in her pressure hull. Retreating at full speed. Bergall hauled clear only to find that the damage was beyond repair at the scene, 2000 miles from the nearest friendly port, Ex- mouth Gulf, Australia. When reporting the problem to Admiral Christie Cdr. Hyde was ordered to rendezvous with Angler, Bashaw and Paddle, remove the crew and destroy Bergall. After carefully reviewing the situation, Cdr. Hyde decided to disobey this order and try to take Bergall home through Karimata, the Java Sea and Lombok on the surface. He removed one officer and 54 men to the Angler, destroyed all confidential gear, set demolition charges by her torpedoes and mines and got underway for Exmouth Gulf, Angler following closely, standing by to remove personnel from Bergall if danger threatened. Five days later, they arrived at Exmouth Bay on 20 December 1944.

If you were to ask Commander Hyde how harmless the Japanese Navy was, wonder if he'd give you a bunch of numbers compiled after the war which imply that Japanese ASW was half-hearted at best. Play stock or RFB and you're in nowhere near the appropriate amount of danger.

STILL REMEMBER THIS USS FLYING FISH?

On August 28, 1942, Flying Fish (Donaho) hit a battleship of the Kongo class. While setting up to fire at one of the escorts, a plane dropped a bomb close to Flying fish, forcing her deep, while the escorts delivered a devastating depth charge attack. Two hours later Flying Fish returned to periscope depth. While Donaho was scanning the horizon a nervous torpedoman in the after torpedo room accidentally fired a fish from No.7 tube with the outer door closed. For the following two days the crew worked to release the torpedo, finally being able to pull it back inside the ATR. Donaho then proceeded to the Truk area where he was attacked and seriously damaged by a patrol boat. On Sept. 4 he closed another patrol boat on the surface. It opened fire with a three-inch gun. Donaho cleared the bridge, then closed to 600 yards and fired a torpedo, which missed. As Flying Fish dove, she took a terrific down angle. Two Destroyers joined in the attack, dropping a total of 54 depth charges. Flying Fish, severely damaged, went to 350 feet. In order to maintain depth, Donaho had to hold the boat at an 18-degree up angle. The ordeal was over in four and a half-hours as the Flying Fish survived one of the worst depth charging of the war.

There's what the participants remembered: experiences you won't find in stock or RFB: fear. A simulation without fear is not realistic. I believe that realism is mearsured by the actions and emotions of the player, not whether the enemy obeys mathematically precise generalisms based on post-war analysis. Trigger Maru achieves this. Finally:

REMEMBER THIS USS HARDER?

The Harder's (Dealey) last patrol was conducted in July-August 1944 with Haddo and Ray in a wolfpack. After decimating a convoy on August 19th on the west coast of Mindoro and sustaining one of the worst depth charge attacks thus far in the war, they moved to the entrance of Manila Bay. On the night of Aug. 21 they picked up three targets on radar. Nimitz, in Haddo, suggested that the targets were too small to bother with, but Dealy insisted on attacking. The targets were ASW "Kaibokans" - the Harder sinking the Hiburi and Matsumwa, while the Haddo sank the Sado. Moving along the west coast of Luzon, on Aug. 22, Harder found a tanker, escorted by the destroyer Asakaze. Firing 4 fish, Dealey hit Asakaze, blowing her bow off. Two trawlers and another destroyer came out to tow the Asakaze to safety but she sank on the way in. Two days later another contact was made with another Kaibokan and the former 4-stack destroyer USS Stewart that was captured by the Japanese when abandoned in a marine railway in Surabaya in February 1942. The patrol boat 102 (Stewart) located Harder and commenced dropping a staggered pattern of depth charges, 6 charges in each run, the first at 150 feet, the second 180 feet, then 270, 360, and finally 450 feet. After the 5th run, oil and other debris began to surface. The water in this area was 900 feet deep.

Here is a ferocity not even achieved by Trigger Maru. And Harder sunk by an American destroyer captured by the Japanese. Get that: staggered patterns, 180, 270 360 and 450 feet in the same drop.

In stock or RFB you just find a layer, set it on silent running under 3 knots and go to lunch. The real sub jockeys would laugh that we call that simulation.

One more. Tell me if anything close to this happens in stock SH4 or RFB:

REMEMBER THIS USS PUFFER?

At 1100 on the morning of Oct. 9, 1943, Puffer (Jensen) hit a merchantman with two torpedoes while patrolling the northern end of Makassar Strait. The merchantman's escort was not detected, and Puffer fired a second time. Shortly thereafter distant depth charges were heard, and at 1145 six depth charges exploded close by. The concussion caused the conning tower hatch to unseat, admitting a shower of water. A sea valve plug in the ATR was loosened, admitting a thin, high-pressure stream of water. Gaskets were blown out of the main induction valve and the ventilation supply. Ten minutes later another depth charge exploded nearby, followed by four more, staggered in depth, fifteen minutes later. Depth control became difficult. The boat slowly settled to an alarming depth level, with a twelve degree down angle. The temperature reached 125 degrees in parts of the boat. Safety tank, negative, auxiliary, and after trim were all blown dry.
The ASW attack continued for a total of thirty-one hours. Many of the men were in a state of physical collapse. Stations had to be manned by volunteers.
Finally, Puffer surfaced directly from deep submergence at 1910 on October 10, 1943.

The real war is defined by the men who fought it, not dry statistics. These were the men of the United States Submarine Veterans of World War II who wrote each of the above accounts. They're mightily persuasive to me.

[Ducimus]

>>Here is a ferocity not even achieved by Trigger Maru


Ohhhh.. and to think i was acutally thinking about increasing the effects of thermal layers up a half a notch (took it down a full notch in current WIP).


Now i think i wont. Maybe ill just let it ride, and if its too much, im sure folks will let me know in no uncertain terms. :rotfl:

Edit:

I can say this, that one test mission i ran, i put myself in a bad position, but it was to simulate the after effects of a convoy attack. I put one tin can in a position where i could detect me. Being at all stop without Silent running enabled, he heard me from about 3,000 yards and came barreling in. This signaled the other 2 tin cans i placed in a simulated convoy position.

The first one came in two runs. After that, "Mr Minekaze" () came in along the long axis of my sub and dropped a beauty that exploded right above the aft torpedo room. It did not take off H.I, but it did bust a bulkhead.

I spent the next 20 minutes doing damage control, and was forced out of silent running to effect repairs and control flooding. Once i got the flooding under control, i stopped the pumps, knowing i was still stern heavy, and drifted down to my crush depth. I then had to restart the pumps.Point being, by being forced out of silent running, i dont think i was losing them anytime soon. Once i got the water out, i could tell i was in for a long game of cat and mouse, and had about 2 or 3 more close calls. The 3 kept circleing, either around me, or just behind me.

Point being, i dont know if that test run was an accurate gauge of their effectiveness, but it sure did look like it was going to last awhile. Although the "ring" was starting to form behind me, which is an indicator that i was about to break free - however, im not sure on that either cause they were still dropping close astern.

:hmm: guess we'll just have to see.

[Rockin Robbins]

Muahahahahahahahahahahha! I knew you had it in you!

Rockin Robbins im not sure Dick O'Kane would agree. This is what he wrote in his first patrol report.

(J) ANTI-SUBMARINE MEASURES AND EVASION TACTICS

Numerous escorts were encountered with every contact, but their patrolling was unsystematic and sooner or later left an opening for attack, generally on the flank. As it was possible to come unbelievably close on the quarter of an escort without being sighted, poor stern or quarter lookouts on their part is indicated.
Their gunfire and depth charging was of the wildest sort and most ineffectual. As always evasion was easy when the enemy was hit first, and much simplified by the PPI.

[bluedingo]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Ah but--what is realism?

All hands man your philosophical battle stations!

[Schultzy]

All hands man your philosophical battle stations!

:rotfl:

If a japanese destroyer drops a depth charge and no one is manning the hydrophones, does it still make a noise when it explodes?

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by bluedingo

All hands man your philosophical battle stations!

Thats why i try to substitute the word "realism" with "challenge". :rotfl:


Or.. ill say.. "more realistic".. as opposed to just "realistc".

"More realistic" is to say... leaning more in the direction of historical accuracy, but not quite there.

Saying "realistic" is to say, it IS 100% historically accurate.


My 2 cents on wordsmithing

[gAiNiAc]

Thanks Gentlemen!

Nice to meet a WWII sub vet here too!

I'm a squid (Vet), Airdale. My Brother is an Ensign (NUKE) currently in submarine school.

Ducimus......Make it nastier.........Make it so you have to sweat.

[swdw]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

If you ask a WWII sub sailor what realism was, their description will come much closer to Trigger Maru than RFB.

Based on which version of RFB?

Also, different boats had different experiences with scooting under a thermal layer. There WERE boats that were able to drop below the thermal layer and just slowly chug away. THere were escorts that threw a few depth charges and left. THe 1.4 version of RFB runs the whole spectrum. Sometimes it's pretty easy, at other times I had a DC attack last over 8 hours because of rolling in Peto's extended DC evasion mod in the 1.4 version. Putting it at 3 knots and toodling off was not working. RFB also uses less attenuation for the layer than stock, so they CAN follow you.

Both RFB and TMO have varying levels of escort aggressiveness and experience. In fact, I slipped into an entire convoy in TMO with the lead escorsts only dropping about 10 DC's total and then losing me under the layer. Early in the war so they probably had a low level of experience. After hitting 3 merchants, I underwent a 10 minute DC attack before losing them . . . by slipping below the layer and heading off at 3 knots after a DC run.

As for your reference to the Puffer. Yes things like that have happened with the new damage changes LukeFF has put in for 1.5. Had a depth charge go off close and injure 2/3 of the people in the control room, start flooding, knock out some gear. About 4 depth charges later the same thing happened to the engine room.This was tested some before you were in the group.

So when you make comments like that, it might be better to preface them with "earlier versions of RFB", until you've had a chance to mess with the new one (of which the beta for the testers is uploading at this time), especially combined with AG's RFB air layer. There are things he's done in the air layer for RFB not in TMO or RSRD.

[u.Prestige]

I havn't tried RFB 1.4 yet, I play TMO1.5 (with SP1 bravo & SP2)+RSRDC371 now.
I found too many unscorted single merchants in TMO, espesially in Celebs Sea, campaign mode 1942 and early 1943.
That's fun but is it historical realistic?

[swdw]

Originally Posted by u.Prestige

I havn't tried RFB 1.4 yet, I play TMO1.5 (with SP1 bravo & SP2)+RSRDC371 now.
I found too many unscorted single merchants in TMO, espesially in Celebs Sea, campaign mode 1942 and early 1943.
That's fun but is it historical realistic?

Yes, the Pacific is a much bigger ocean than the atlantic and the japanese had a huge number of shipping routes betwen obtaining their raw materials and supplying all their outlying posts. Early in the war they just didn't have enough escorts to adequately cover their shipping. Even later in the war the amount of ASW required compared to what was actually available was still not enough. It wasn't unusual to see small convoys escorted by aircraft instead of ASW ships when within range of airbases.

[kylesplanet]

Originally Posted by u.Prestige

I havn't tried RFB 1.4 yet, I play TMO1.5 (with SP1 bravo & SP2)+RSRDC371 now.
I found too many unscorted single merchants in TMO, espesially in Celebs Sea, campaign mode 1942 and early 1943.
That's fun but is it historical realistic?

Ducimus can correct me if I'm wrong but if your running RSRD, TMO has nothing to do with unescorted traffic, that is RSRD which is historically right on the money.

[Ducimus]

swdw, you give me too much lip service! Thanks for the kind words though, i appreciate it. On that note, i have to say the RFB folks are making leaps and bounds. Some of their efforts im really impressed with. Infact, sometimes i feel like im "keeping up with the jones's" !!

A one man modding team (IE, me, myself, and I), cannot last very long when working with a large project like TM. Its quite frankly become, "Too Much" for me now. I will have no choice but to throw in the towel soon. RFB however has the moxie to continue development, and will push ahead long after ive said, "ok, thats it, ive had enough". In the end, i think RFB will be twice the mod TM ever is. All thats needed is time, and patience. (the latter of which im more and more becoming in short supply of)

Ducimus can correct me if I'm wrong but if your running RSRD, TMO has nothing to do with unescorted traffic, that is RSRD which is historically right on the money.

If your running RSRD, all traffic is property of RSRD, i have nothing to do with it. Rest assured that RSRD is as historically accurate is possible. As to unescorted traffic, it is my understanding that convoys weren't really implemented by any substantial effort by the japanese tell late in the war. However, some of the accounts ive read are real humdinggers! Im sure as the war progresses, the campaign will follow things as how they were. B the end of the war, i suspect you'll be doing alot of anti-picket boat sweeps, and dodging mines while entering the sea of japan.