SH3 vs SH4 Questions

[Galanti]

Originally Posted by reallydedpoet

Correct, threads like this are old news, enjoy em' both for what they are, two great sims


RDP

Two outstanding sims! If you were to survey the premier offerings in every sim genre today, I would say the WW2 sub sim genre easily has the most comprehensive, immersive, historically faithful and plainly gorgeous simulations to choose from, IMO.

We are indeed fortunate. Our cousins in the flight sim community, for example, have some excellent choices in IL-2, Falcon4 and LOMAC, but all of these games possess glaring shortcomings in one category or another. We can either go with SH3 and SH4 and we are getting pretty much the definative War 2 undersea warfare experience.

Although, and I never would have said this even four months ago, some Brit sub ops out of Ceylon would be nice.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Ula Jolly

I believe this assessment is wrong in many ways. It is though not the topic of the thread to discuss the actual differences between the theaters, but merely the games that depict them.

Let's start another thread and discuss that! I was replying to his evident expectation that in order to measure up, SH4 had to have the same AI, sub controls, TDC and tactics as a U-Boat. They are different. If that is his standard the American boats and SH4 will not "measure up." The reason is that the simulations reflect the reality that you contend is not the topic of the thread. Watch for my thread and let's see some of your "so many ways." This will be interesting when you see my full reasoning.

[Petsman]

My fellow Captains!..You made me sad

I play SH3(GWX 1.03) for years at high realism (88%).
I am in the forums for quite some time and I do ude the search function a lot. When i post questions the reason is that I did not find any clear or satisfying answers in the forums.

All I wanted is some clear answers to some specific question.

I did not have the intension to compare the two games. I want to know some vital for me gameplay differences. I believe SH4 is a great game equal to SH3 and even potensially better!

I am sad cause only ONE answered to my questions and i thank him. Even thought he did not had answers for all of them. Then the others were just arguing.

Could you please answer to my questions.

Thank you Captains!

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Petsman

1. Anti-Detection tactics and depths are as in Sh3? Also asdic range?

Any anti-detection tactics that work in SH3 will also work in SH4 with one exception: Ducimus' evil depth charging planes, which can see you at periscope depth, charge you without warning.

Originally Posted by Petsman

2. Can you choose in ehich engines the subs can work ( all or half of them)

Yes, in that you can choose to charge batteries, which unhooks one or two engines from propulsion. Other than that, no.

Originally Posted by Petsman

3. Position keeper is necessary or not? I mean without it will the TDC automatically will update the solution like in SH3?

The American TDC, in order for the PK to work, needs to be specifically input data. Otherwise, as you pointed your scope around you would ruin your setup. Put it this way. The PK is what continuously updates your aiming point, not the periscope. Overall, it works better that way. If you wish to use a strategy reminiscent of U-Boats (and that will also educate you quickly and understandably about the differences in TDC operation) see my before-referenced tutorial on the Dick O'Kane targeting technique. I find the differences between U-Boat and American submarine TDCs very enjoyable.

Originally Posted by Petsman

4. As I read , do you really need a lot more torpeodos to sink a ship comparing to sh3

No. I like to use WernerSobe's Natural Sinking Mechanics for more realism.

Originally Posted by Petsman

5. manual targeting the same? I mean 3minute rule , aob calc e.t.c.?

Trigonometry is trigonometry. It all works the same, all over the world. Triangles have the same characteristics in the Pacific as they do in the Atlantik. Because of the differing TDC/periscope interface you will obtain the information somewhat differently but it will all be familiar and entertaining to adapt what you already know to the Pacific theater.

Originally Posted by Petsman

6. Shooting at specific comps of the ship will sink it faster?( like engines or ammo bunkers) or it is as gwx 1.3?

In the stock game the different compartments do have different cargo that influence the amount of damage the ship takes. However the ship is assigned a certain amount of hitpoints. When the number is reached the ship explodes and sinks like a stone. However Natural Sinking Mechanics changes all that to a logical array of compartments. Hitpoints are increased so the size and contents of the compartment then determine how the boat sinks. For example: a full tanker will explode and burn because the cargo does. But an empty tanker will only sink by flooding and can absorb a discouraging amount of torpedoes. Sinking times are historically long when a ship is flooding. Multiple torpedoes in the same spot do little additional damage due to a hardcoded defect which I suspect is also present in SH3. For more info go to the Mods forum and read WernerSobe's thread on Natural Sinking Mechanics.

Originally Posted by Petsman

7. Is there a mod in Sh4 like gwx? I know about Tmaru but is it good or i have to wait for something like gwx?

No, there is no mod anywhere like gwx. SH4 is a better stock game anyway, needing less comprehensive treatment. That being said TM is not the end of your modding as GWX tries to be for SH3 (although SH3 is full of people who ignore the GWX team's cautions about unexpected mod interactions and layer them anyway with usually unfortunate results). TM affects both submarine and environment, but mostly submarine. Natural Sinking Mechanics leaves all that alone and shapes characteristics of individual surface ships. Reflections on the Water is an environmental mod changing water and sky and light characteristics. Run Silent Run Deep is a campaign mod, changing how targets are organized, where they go at certain dates. By design each of these modders and mod teams have left areas outside their field untouched so you are completely free to use them together and I recommend you do so after you get a feel for the naked game so you can appreciate the changes. Other than sub skins, radio mods and Real Deck Gun, that is all I use. I predict that Real Fleet Boat will be the mod to use in a few months. That team rocks!

Originally Posted by Petsman

8. Milk cows in sh4?

No. They didn't work for the Germans but were great entertainment for Allied ASW teams. The milk cow crews were not amused. The US developed forward bases where the subs could refuel, similar to Germany's exploitation of neutral ports, especially in Spain, for that purpose.

Proviso: the SH4 mission concept is much better than SH3. Instead of a quadrant to patrol with no instructions and total freedom to do what you wish, SH4 gives you objectives which you need to accomplish most of or you will be relieved of command. In addition, after your cruise is completed you have the ability to purchase upgrades, hand out medals and promote crew members. Extending your cruise by refitting and going back out cripples your career by denying you new subs from construction, refits and all of the above. When you accomplish your mission return to base and end your cruise. You won't be relieved of command and you will get all those goodies selfish captains forego in their quest for highest cruise tonnage. High command doesn't care about that.

Originally Posted by Petsman

Thanks in advance!

So I've answered all eight of your questions, plus one you didn't know to ask, although Zero Niner did a great job and I previously had not thought I needed to do a "me too" post. I guess that's what you wanted though. Do I get a better grade now?

[Petsman]

uote: Originally Posted by Petsman
3. Position keeper is necessary or not? I mean without it will the TDC automatically will update the solution like in SH3?
The American TDC, in order for the PK to work, needs to be specifically input data. Otherwise, as you pointed your scope around you would ruin your setup. Put it this way. The PK is what continuously updates your aiming point, not the periscope. Overall, it works better that way. If you wish to use a strategy reminiscent of U-Boats (and that will also educate you quickly and understandably about the differences in TDC operation) see my before-referenced tutorial on the Dick O'Kane targeting technique. I find the differences between U-Boat and American submarine TDCs very enjoyable.



Thanks for everything.

Just something for the P.K. Can I do not use PK? I mean can input the data to tdc (speed range bearing aob) and then like sh3 will the tdc auto update the aob?

[CaptainHaplo]

Petsman,

The first set of answers you got were very accurate. You will need more torps to sink the enemy, only because of the problems (historically accurate) that existed - as time passes those are alleviated. Things such as prematures, deep runners, circle runners, etc.

As for the hits sinking ships - it depends on if you stay with "Stock" SH4 or use the NSM mod. NSM creates realistic sinkings like GWX does. For example, hitting the same spot twice wont really help much to sink your target, since all it does is still flood one compartment. Since NSM causes sinking due to flooding, you have to flood enough compartments. Of course, there is always the change you get a critical hit and one shot blows the target to bits.

There really isnt a GWX for SH4 yet - it took a long time for GWX to get built, in time something similiar will likely appear. There are some "super mods" out but nothing the scope of GWX as yet.

ASW tactics and such are similiar, but ranges and the mechanics differ quite a bit. After all, you and your enemy are using different equipment - not german Uboats and allied escorts. For example, US subs never had an anechoic coating or decoys during the war. Different IJN escorts would have different asdic ranges based on the equipment they carried, etc.

Individual engine control is not available, much to the chagrin of many. Its not in SH3/GWX either for the same reasons - its cannot be modded in at this time.

Manual targetting is the "same" mathematically speaking. The 3 minute rule still applies, as well as all the other calculations. SH4 gives you the ability to use imperial or metric so if your used to metric you wont be totally shut out of doing manual targetting.

There was no such think as a "Milch Cow" for the USN - fleet boats held alot more fuel, food and ordinance than the type VII. The concept was never used by the USN in the pacific except in a rare emergency personel transfer or some such.

The position keeper - its not a yes or no - the TDC operates totally different than the one on Uboats. This is historically accurate. You may use the PK or not depending on how you play.

Get SH4, patch it to 1.4 - then play a bit - with a grain of salt. Figure out what does and doesnt work for you (like stock is very arcadish with gun reload times, traffic, etc) - then get mods that make it more what you want. Both RFB and TM are excellent starts, although I suggest adding the NSM (damage/sinking mod) and RSRD (historical traffic mod) to whichever one you use as combined they really make things much more realistic.

One note - if you do this - dont think that, like in a uboat, being underwater is protection from aircraft. Historically, in the pacific, you could be seen as deep as 150 feet or more - and get bombed. This is recreated in some mods so dont be suprised.

[Rockin Robbins]

In SH4 the PK updates the TDC parameters: range, AoB, torpedo track, not the periscope. In SH3 it is assumed you are doing a fast-90 approach. In SH4 the TDC works with any configuration of own and target tracks! This amazing advantage allowed you to set up a solution no matter what your relationship to the target is.

I recommend that you attend WernerSobe's Advanced School of Submarine Attack Tactics in his stickied thread above and follow the links I have previously posted in this thread when I was merely "arguing" to attend his amazing tutorials. Then my seminar on the Dick O'Kane attack procedure is available on page 5 (I think. Might be 4) for you to see what you can do if you turn the blasted PK off. Actually, subsequent experience and Arronblood's input have introduced some refinements, but they are not necessary to hit the target and so I have left the tutorial as is. I may make a new tutorial at some time but would leave the old one in place. It may be more instructive anyway as I got itchy trigger fingers and blew the attack, although all torpedoes hit and the target went down. See if you can spot the errors!

I will tell you that electing never to use the PK is just as crippling as deciding always to use the PK. A variety of attack techniques leads to greater success and the American submarine has a versitility the U-Boat cannot dream of. Results of my testing procedures:

The two planes were from when I was young and stupid. Don't shoot at those...

[Petsman]

Thanks Rockin, just one more thing. Why you said that when i cmomplete the objectives i should go back to port. What if i do some free hunting for a while?




P.S. In Sh3 the TDC didint assume that you do the fast 90 aproach. You could find a solution at any angle the then the optics updated the tdc as the bearing to target changed.
Any good tutorial for 100% realism?

[kylesplanet]

Originally Posted by Petsman

Thanks Rockin, just one more thing. Why you said that when i cmomplete the objectives i should go back to port. What if i do some free hunting for a while?




P.S. In Sh3 the TDC didint assume that you do the fast 90 aproach. You could find a solution at any angle the then the optics updated the tdc as the bearing to target changed.
Any good tutorial for 100% realism?

After you complete your objective, you radio in your status report and you will get another objective as long as you have enough fish. I think when your down to five fish, they stop giving you objectives. If you have enough fuel left then you can hunt away but fuel management is a priority in this game.

If it is later in the war and you can reach some of the other ports to refit, you can hunt until your heart is content but don't radio in or you will get new objectives. I don't think thats historically accurate but still, you can do it.

[Linavitch]

Originally Posted by Petsman

What if i do some free hunting for a while?

I usually follow my orders but I will investigate contacts en route evne if the are a bit out of the way. If I get a really horrible objective like Photo Recon of Hiroshima I'll just ignore it and go off cruising. (Lost 2 subs in there)

There is also the option when finding a convoy or Task Force to radio in and recieve additional orders. Sink the enemy battleships or the like. However you are as likely to get "good Find, will assign other assets" which is a bit of a bummer. Although I don't think you get penalised for ignoring these orders.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Petsman

Thanks Rockin, just one more thing. Why you said that when i cmomplete the objectives i should go back to port. What if i do some free hunting for a while?




P.S. In Sh3 the TDC didint assume that you do the fast 90 aproach. You could find a solution at any angle the then the optics updated the tdc as the bearing to target changed.
Any good tutorial for 100% realism?

WernerSobe's videos are the best! They will not only teach you manual targeting, they will get you excited about it!

You can go free hunting if you want. I just go back to port when I'm out of torpedoes and end the cruise. Then you get the medals, promotions, maybe a new boat out of construction or a refit. It's all the luck of the draw and the more times you draw from the pile the higher your odds of scoring the good stuff. That argues for short cruises as long as you have fulfilled your objective.