SH3 vs SH4 Questions
 

I play SH3 gwx 1.3
I am considering to buy sh4 but i hesitate because of the things i read in the forum.
Can you enlight me in some things?


1. Anti-Detection tactics and depths are as in Sh3? Also asdic range?
2. Can you choose in ehich engines the subs can work ( all or half of them)
3. Position keeper is necessary or not? I mean without it will the TDC automatically will update the solution like in SH3?
4. As I read , do you really need a lot more torpeodos to sink a ship comparing to sh3
5. manual targeting the same? I mean 3minute rule , aob calc e.t.c.?
6. Shooting at specific comps of the ship will sink it faster?( like engines or ammo bunkers) or it is as gwx 1.3?
7. Is there a mod in Sh4 like gwx? I know about Tmaru but is it good or i have to wait for something like gwx?
8. Milk cows in sh4?

Thanks in advance!

Keep in mind this is a different theatre of operations, with different equipment, enemies and capabilites of the belligerents, and set your expectations accordlingly. It's not "U-boats in the Pacific" - although I believe an official add-on will be coming out that addresses the operations of U-boats in the western Pacific/South and South East Asia.

I'm giving my opinions as an avid simmer who spent quite a bit of time on SH3/GWX in its various incarnations, so take it for what it's worth. The usual adage about my meat being your poison etc applies.

1. Anti-Detection tactics and depths are as in Sh3? Also asdic range?
Can't really compare, imo. U-boats were generally capable of achieving greater depths than US subs. I am unable to comment on in-game Japanese (IJN) sonar capability, but historically they were weaker than US/British ASW capability in the Atlantic. I think the game (esp with the appropriate mods) simulates this but as I am still new to the game, I can't say for sure.
However the general principles remain the same - dive deep, go slow, silent running, presenting a small profile etc.

2. Can you choose in ehich engines the subs can work ( all or half of them)
No, afaik. But this I think is realistic as US subs were constrcuted differently. In the fleet boats, the engines were coupled to electric motors (for propulsion) or generators (to charge batteries). Unlike U-boats, they were never coupled directly to the prop shaft to turn the propellers.
That said however you can turn off battery charging if you need an extra 1 or 2 knots speed on the surface.

3. Position keeper is necessary or not? I mean without it will the TDC automatically will update the solution like in SH3?
Yes, but the US TDC works differently from the German one. No salvo option, for one (historically correct). But it has one advantage - it can track your current target (provided there is no change in course and speed) whilst you use your periscope to look at another one.

4. As I read , do you really need a lot more torpeodos to sink a ship comparing to sh3
Not really, small merchants take about 1 - 2 torpedoes, medium 1 - 3. The damage system in the stock game is similar to stock SH3, i.e. hitpoints. There is a mod that changes this to flooding, like what GWX did for SH3. What you may be seeing is the problem that US subs had early in the war - torps that did not work as designed. For example, last night I fired two fish at a IJN subchaser. Both exploded prematurely. I had to fire a 3rd one which finally hit, and sank the ship within 5 minutes.

5. manual targeting the same? I mean 3minute rule , aob calc e.t.c.?
SH4 gives you the option of having measurements in imperial or metric. Beyond this I cannot comment. But then again, I imagine that the principles would be the same. It is after all merely a complex problem in geometry.

6. Shooting at specific comps of the ship will sink it faster?( like engines or ammo bunkers) or it is as gwx 1.3?
No idea. There is a mod (Natural Sinking Mechanics) that I think tries to do for SH4 what GWX (or the original mod that was incorporated into GWX) did for ship sinking in SH3. With the mod, ships sink by flooding. I do know that there are critical hits, but whether these are merely a matter of probability or tied in to zones I don't know, as I have yet to use it.

7. Is there a mod in Sh4 like gwx? I know about Tmaru but is it good or i have to wait for something like gwx?
Currently there are 2 mods similar in scope to GWX, so in a sense these are the "GWX"'s of SH4. One is Trigger Maru, which I am using myself, and the other is Real Fleet Boat. I will leave it to RFB users to extol its virtues. For me, TMaru is a satisfactory supermod that addresses most of the inaccuracies and quirks of SH4.

8. Milk cows in sh4?
No, simply because the USN did not have such submarines in the Pacific in WW2. You can however rearm and refuel at designated friendly bases and continue your patrol. For example during the war boats from Pearl Harbor would stop at Midway Island to refuel on their way to/from their patrol zones around Japan. You can do so in the game.

To summarise, if you like the subject matter (US submarine operations in the Pacific in WW2) then you should purchase a copy. I was disappointed by the bugs/inaccuracies when it was first released (plus distracted by SH3! :D ), but with the latest patch (1.4) & mods most annoyances are fixed and I am now enjoying the game.

Also to add to the above, do a search on the topic and you will find many old threads discussing it. Bottom line, SH3 after close to 3 years, amazing game, SH4 not quite a year old, is getting there :yep: Two great games, nice time to be into sub-simming.


RDP

American subs <> U-boats
 

Submarines are not like automobiles. They don't have standard controls. You can expect the American submarine to work quite differently from the German "equivalent." You can expect the Pacific ocean to be very different from the German "equivalent."

One historical fact you can count on: the German U-Boat was poorly designed and tactics improperly drawn, leaving Germany unable to achieve victory (in fact U-Boats ensured Germany's defeat) in its theater.

The American submarine was well-suited for its task and stategy adequate for victory in the Pacific.

The first time you encounter a convoy with 24 immediately useable torpedoes you'll understand.:up:

What's the point of risking your life to urinate on a forest fire?:rotfl:If you can't carry enough water to put it out you're better off staying home.

Welcome to SH4, you will surely enjoy it....first begin with reading this wonderful historical outlook provided by Ducimus; http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=128185

For more historical background which is very important to getting the most out of the SH4 sim...you can find some really good reading on the Submarine War in the PTO. I am currently reading Silent Victory, which gives a very good account of what was what!

Enjoy, it has become an outstanding sim....IMHO.

Overall I have been a bit disappointed in SH4 vs SH3. As it stands now SH4 1.4 is still quite buggy and generally has a very "arcadey" feel stock, much more so than SH3. However, the big mods (ROW, RFB, etc.) are excellent and help restore the SH3+GWX sim feel to it and fix many of the problems. There is still a long way to go though and there isn't a full GWX-type complete package that does everything. So you kind of have to hunt and peck for the mods that have what you want and hope they don't cause problems with each other.

There is no comparison in gameplay imho between the AI and realistic feel of SH3+GWX vs SH4 and the current mods right now. Destroyer/aircraft AI is weak, traffic needs alot of work, ports (ugh), torpedo/deck gun damage. weather, etc. - all works in progress and far off from SH3. Graphically SH4 is better (I would say marginally but that's relative to everyone) but that's about it.

The most important thing is that I have yet to feel close to the tension/excitement of my u-boat in SH3 tracking down convoys, running the channel, or raiding ports to name a few.

That said, SH4 is very inexpensive right now (I paid $18 new at BB), so if you are a fan of SH3 at all it's a no-brainer to pick it up and play around with it while the mods mature. I would imagine alot of serious captains will be sticking to SH3+GWX for quite a while though.

I take it you haven't tried SH4 with the mods then? If you had, you'd have a very different opinion :)

another thought
 

I would say that because SH3 totally ignores U-Boats working together in wolfpacks, and because wolfpacks were so central to submarine strategy in that theater, that leaves the simulation fatally flawed beyond the ability of the excellent GWX team to salvage it. I love the game, but simulation of the true U-Boat experience it is not!

SH4, however, comes much closer to reproducing the experience of the US sub captain than SH3 does for the German side because of the above deficit.

That's my problem: I avoid controversy.

You've hit the nail on the head there. That being said, the US boats operated in wolfpacks too. Would have liked to have seen at least a nod to that.

Funny thing is..................the developers said a few weeks ago, "We have heard about the wolf packs from the community loud and clear." Take it for what it is worth. At any rate, SH4 is just coming along fine. The mods created thus far are excellent.

I believe this assessment is wrong in many ways. It is though not the topic of the thread to discuss the actual differences between the theaters, but merely the games that depict them.

Bottom line - it's your personal preference of theater.

Frankly, if you tally up each's flaws and triumphs, they pretty much even out, so in the end you have to decide if you prefer U-boats to Fleet boats.
Rockin Robbin: :rock: I love SH3/GWX, but do find it it's much ballhooed superiority to get quite tiresome.

The plus side of the above though is that the game is very customizable in it's current state. The larger the mod, the more difficult this can be.


RDP

To be honest, I try not to compare them too much anyway. I have both installed and play both.

They were released over 2 years apart, involve completely different forces, technologies and in very different theaters of the war. The graphics, IMO, are too different to even be comparable, and the technologies (eg. air warning radar from the very beginning for SHIV, at least if you start the war with a Sargo class boat) make tactical comparisons difficult (in SHIV, I simply do not worry about air threats as I always have ample time to dive out of danger, while in SHIII it is often the single biggest threat I have to be concerned about). Navigation is often a much bigger issue in SHIV then in SHIII as well, simply due to the nature of the operational area (eg. down off Indonesia or Malaysia or the Celebes sea - or try operating on the Sunda Shelf or Java Sea).

And I would not rate SHIV, 1.4 as bug-ridden - it is simple not that laden with flaws to warrant that term. The 1.4 patch with TM 1.7.5 and a few other mods is an very enjoyable game.

As is SHIII with GWX2 - I give 'em both a :up:

Correct, threads like this are old news, enjoy em' both for what they are, two great sims :yep:


RDP