The enemy within: evangelical fundamentalism in US armed forces

Ducimus · 11-21-07, 09:06 PM

Theres a never ending vicious cycle thats been at work for some time. You push a group of people, they push back harder. If atheists or christians stopped shoving at each other (im ambivilant to both), and realized that their rights end, where the other persons nose begins (both literally and figuratively), then maybe that subject will finally go the way of the dodo bird. Until such time, it will be a never ending social tug of war, with no end in sight.

As an aside, people, and their views, are products of their enviorment in which they've lived. Not everyone experiences the bad things that are derived from sterotypes, others do. The trick remains to keep the bad experiences in perspective and not paint with a wide brush, but always the bad experiences remain, and they're never forgotton, so it often becomes very hard. (theres a story behind that, but its much too personal)

edit:

BTW , RR, please dont take offense at my views on this subject. My personality is often just frank bluntless, mixed with a heavy seasoning of sarchasm, with a "hell bent for leather" attitude, for want of a better term. I think im hardwired that way. Imagine my surpise when i met some long lost relatives from one of my genetic parients and found ALL OF EM are just like that. Good christ!

Skybird · 11-22-07, 04:12 AM

Not dangerous, said Rocking robbins - but that is missing the point. The study for example asks the question in how far extreme religious views work like a filter through which reality must pass before a man'S reason makes any plans and and ways to adress it. It points at the risk that dangers do not get perceived just in time, or are exaggerated, because of the religous fundamentalism of the decision-makers. A German text I also read on the issue points at some statistical data, showing that since the Vietnam war the numerical relation between democrats and republicans in the military has very fundamentally changed, almost reversed accoridng to the USAWC study now, and that the link between being Republican camps and fundamentalist evangelical policies and opinions is extremely strong - its not really matching reality to say that Republicans "always" had been totally dominating in the military - this total dominance has devceloped over the past 3 or 4 decades only. also it was pointed out that the group pressure on people to join the fundamental christian orientation in units and branches of the army forces is extremely strong and reaches as far as open mobbing of people, denying them any career chances if they resist, and isolating them if they do withhold themselves from joining the belief of their units, or do not attend the service of their evangelical unit caplan. And finally, it was pointed out that in the past years under Bush, radical evangelical camps were able to push their people in up to 50% of those positions representing higher command ranks and planning and decision making positions.

Not dangerous?

So, there is a very great danger indeed, by evangelical dogma dominating percpetion of reality and decision making on questions of war and peace, and how to wage wars and with what objectives, and growing religious intolerance in the army. By influencing both the composition of the army, and the way in which threats to the US from the outside get evaluated, the thread this developement poses isheavily influencing US policy. This is not the army from the time of vietnam, and it is not the army fighting in WWII.

And I would rate the Iraq '03 and also the person of Bush himself war as one symptom of this dangerous developement. Look were both have led America.

CB.. · 11-22-07, 11:48 AM

generaly speaking you would have to feel it to be disturbing to have any group that fermently believes in armageddon to have even the most marginal influence over military decisions....as they may well generate a "self fullfilling prophecy"..why work for any possible peacefull soloution if you are 100% sure that all will end in destruction...??? that is they by definition will have precious little FAITH in any positive outcome..and may even believe any peacefull outcome to be "the work of the devil"....having had some little contact with "bouncy castle" fundamentalist christianity here in the UK, i can say without any doubt what so ever that the above mind set is nothing out of ordinary at all..fairly left wing in fact as far as Fundamentalist thinking goes...

Iceman · 11-22-07, 05:58 PM

Look at the world around you realistically and quit living fantasy star trek, we all will overcome nonsense, and smell the coffee.It is not only silly but folly to believe that man will "ever" EVER! overcome it differences in faith,politics, and the like in time to save this world...face reality please and concede to the facts of life....

1. The atmosphere is polluted beyond repair.
2. The food supplies are not in good shape and if they are the ones who have starve the have nots.
3. Those in power around the globe will never Never agree to share control.
4. We daily poison ourselves with pollution and crappy foods.
5. This is not just America either but it is a concerted effort by ALL.
6. WE Kill
7. WE Steal
8. We Sin against others and ourselves.

These are facts...non disputed by scientists and the like.

Please please! tell me what possible hope you have that I may believe in it.

The world offers death on a silver platter.

Christ offers life.
Tell me what is wrong with that?
Have a good day.

CB.. · 11-22-07, 06:47 PM

ah but if one is really so sure....what need is there for faith...?? one wonders

Happy Times · 11-22-07, 07:10 PM

If this would be the road America takes, it will have to take it without Europe.
Good bye and good luck.

Skybird · 11-22-07, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

Look at the world around you realistically and quit living fantasy star trek, we all will overcome nonsense, and smell the coffee.It is not only silly but folly to believe that man will "ever" EVER! overcome it differences in faith,politics, and the like in time to save this world...face reality please and concede to the facts of life....

1. The atmosphere is polluted beyond repair.
2. The food supplies are not in good shape and if they are the ones who have starve the have nots.
3. Those in power around the globe will never Never agree to share control.
4. We daily poison ourselves with pollution and crappy foods.
5. This is not just America either but it is a concerted effort by ALL.
6. WE Kill
7. WE Steal
8. We Sin against others and ourselves.

These are facts...non disputed by scientists and the like.

Please please! tell me what possible hope you have that I may believe in it.

The world offers death on a silver platter.

Christ offers life.
Tell me what is wrong with that?
Have a good day.

It surprises me time and again how often people that are trying to raise an impression to be "religious", are desperately hoping for doomsday and the end of the world being near. I wonder how that fits together.

And btw: that attitude has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with what this man named jesus tried to teach people.

Scriptures...

In the end, Iceman, even if by fact all what you said may be true - you do not wish for a chance for man, or a better world. You want to see him fail no matter what - for your own satisfaction, and avoiding to need questioning your own convictions.

Criticising the status quo and expressing fears and concerns is one thing. and i am not taking man's survival for granted myself. But actively wishing for the worst, is a totally other thing. Can you go to sleep at night without being ashamed? Are you teaching this poison for the soul to your children as well, assuming you have any?

Maybe considering to join those Russians sectarians in the cave they occupied? They too think the end of the world is near, and there is no worth and no use in trying. They already hope for the worst, to feel legitimized.

That is queer, mildy put.

Iceman · 11-23-07, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

Look at the world around you realistically and quit living fantasy star trek, we all will overcome nonsense, and smell the coffee.It is not only silly but folly to believe that man will "ever" EVER! overcome it differences in faith,politics, and the like in time to save this world...face reality please and concede to the facts of life....

1. The atmosphere is polluted beyond repair.
2. The food supplies are not in good shape and if they are the ones who have starve the have nots.
3. Those in power around the globe will never Never agree to share control.
4. We daily poison ourselves with pollution and crappy foods.
5. This is not just America either but it is a concerted effort by ALL.
6. WE Kill
7. WE Steal
8. We Sin against others and ourselves.

These are facts...non disputed by scientists and the like.

Please please! tell me what possible hope you have that I may believe in it.

The world offers death on a silver platter.

Christ offers life.
Tell me what is wrong with that?
Have a good day.

It surprises me time and again how often people that are trying to raise an impression to be "religious", are desperately hoping for doomsday and the end of the world being near. I wonder how that fits together.

And btw: that attitude has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with what this man named jesus tried to teach people.

Scriptures...

In the end, Iceman, even if by fact all what you said may be true - you do not wish for a chance for man, or a better world. You want to see him fail no matter what - for your own satisfaction, and avoiding to need questioning your own convictions.

Criticising the status quo and expressing fears and concerns is one thing. and i am not taking man's survival for granted myself. But actively wishing for the worst, is a totally other thing. Can you go to sleep at night without being ashamed? Are you teaching this poison for the soul to your children as well, assuming you have any?

Maybe considering to join those Russians sectarians in the cave they occupied? They too think the end of the world is near, and there is no worth and no use in trying. They already hope for the worst, to feel legitimized.

That is queer, mildy put.

"are desperately hoping for doomsday and the end of the world" I prefer to look at things they way they are not thru rose colored glasses.Drink some more coffee.

"you do not wish for a chance for man, or a better world" I never said this at all I said I look at things they way they ARE not How I "wished" they were.

See you on the other Skybird..you and others here will keep your heads in the sand until the very end which is your "choice", I and Christ merely offers another way....what, as I asked above, is EXACTLY your plan?...you don't have one..period.

I am in no cave and I fear nothing. I have no weapons in my home to protect myself from evil men as I believe that he who kills with the sword will die with it.Do not mistake me for some crazy person I have a great job ,great family, nice home...and tommorrow it is cast into the fire to be tried.

The harvest is great and the laborers few Skybird...it is my hope sincerely that you and all here will be counted as wheat and not chaff.I'm a laborer.But just like in the days of Noah when the time is near the Door will be shut and it will be too late for ya then.

Please do me a favor and not lump me in with "Religion"....belief is not religion.

God and Christ and myself included do not hope or pray for the worlds demise...don't be silly and try to discount what I say by throwing that bs up...I know where you come from Skybird and I know your mind...it is fleshly and you and others here concern yourselves with fleshly things....but the big game the big show being played out behind the veil is for your soul.

Almost harvest time...

Skybird · 11-23-07, 12:08 PM

Quote:

"If I knew that the world is bound to perish tomorrow, I would still plant an apple tree today ."

(Martin Luther)

Quote:

It is not only silly but folly to believe that man will "ever" EVER! overcome it differences in faith,politics, and the like in time to save this world...face reality please and concede to the facts of life....
1. The atmosphere ... 2. The food ... (yaddayaddayadda)
These are facts... non disputed by scientists and the like.
Please please! tell me what possible hope you have that I may believe in it. The world offers death on a silver platter."

(Iceman)

Get a visum for Russia, Iceman, and join those men in the cave. They are your real brothers, believe me.

Fish · 11-23-07, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

I and Christ .

I think that must be, Christ and me. :hmm:

Tchocky · 11-23-07, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

Look at the world around you realistically and quit living fantasy star trek, we all will overcome nonsense, and smell the coffee.It is not only silly but folly to believe that man will "ever" EVER! overcome it differences in faith,politics, and the like in time to save this world...face reality please and concede to the facts of life....

If this is religion...yikes.

Quote:

The world offers death on a silver platter.

Er, yes. The last thing we all do is to die. Are we to let that cloud our judgement and give up any sort of hope? Now I know why it's called blind faith.

Quote:

Christ offers life.
Tell me what is wrong with that?

I suspect that if you had been born in India you wouldn't be saying this. I mean that religion is more or less accidental, incidental, and past it's shelf life.

Stealth Hunter · 11-25-07, 04:39 AM

Hell, I get on a plane for a vacation in California, and people stare at me like I'm going to blow them up just because I look Middle-Eastern (and- well, it's true; but Iranians aren't terrorists...).

Ugly mess all the way around. I'm an American citizen, and damn proud to be one, as am I also damn proud to be Iranian.

LtCmdrRat · 11-26-07, 06:48 PM

Quote from Mr. Robbins:
"What we are supposed to have in America is freedom OF religion, "Congress shall make no law infringing..." not "freedom FROM religion." That, sirs, is a socialist concept we cannot tolerate. "
So I think when I was immigrating to USA I had wrong ideas of liberties.
I hoped that America had both freedom of religion and freedom from religion
I hoped that America has tolerable culture but America doesnt tolerate socialism ideas( does rights even read Marx?)
Freedom of speech is left for your private conversations with your friends in private house.
I hoped that America has good judical system and I was right that Justice in America is the best staff that money can buy.

ps EVERYTHING ABOVE IS JUST MY SARCASM.
My neighbour is really missing America but America from yesterday not today's America. Is he right?

11-26-07, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LtCmdrRat

Quote from Mr. Robbins:
"What we are supposed to have in America is freedom OF religion, "Congress shall make no law infringing..." not "freedom FROM religion." That, sirs, is a socialist concept we cannot tolerate. "
So I think when I was immigrating to USA I had wrong ideas of liberties.
I hoped that America had both freedom of religion and freedom from religion
I hoped that America has tolerable culture but America doesnt tolerate socialism ideas( does rights even read Marx?)
Freedom of speech is left for your private conversations with your friends in private house.
I hoped that America has good judical system and I was right that Justice in America is the best staff that money can buy.

ps EVERYTHING ABOVE IS JUST MY SARCASM.
My neighbour is really missing America but America from yesterday not today's America. Is he right?

In my estimation you are in the wrong thread. If you want answers to your questions, I'd advise starting something new. That is your right here in the US.

RedMenace · 11-24-07, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

Look at the world around you realistically and quit living fantasy star trek, we all will overcome nonsense, and smell the coffee.It is not only silly but folly to believe that man will "ever" EVER! overcome it differences in faith,politics, and the like in time to save this world...face reality please and concede to the facts of life....

1. The atmosphere is polluted beyond repair.
2. The food supplies are not in good shape and if they are the ones who have starve the have nots.
3. Those in power around the globe will never Never agree to share control.
4. We daily poison ourselves with pollution and crappy foods.
5. This is not just America either but it is a concerted effort by ALL.
6. WE Kill
7. WE Steal
8. We Sin against others and ourselves.

These are facts...non disputed by scientists and the like.

Please please! tell me what possible hope you have that I may believe in it.

The world offers death on a silver platter.

Christ offers life.
Tell me what is wrong with that?
Have a good day.

God is dead,
And no one cares.
If there is a Hell,
I'll see you there.

Have a good day.

11-22-07, 04:12 AM	#2
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,783 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Not dangerous, said Rocking robbins - but that is missing the point. The study for example asks the question in how far extreme religious views work like a filter through which reality must pass before a man'S reason makes any plans and and ways to adress it. It points at the risk that dangers do not get perceived just in time, or are exaggerated, because of the religous fundamentalism of the decision-makers. A German text I also read on the issue points at some statistical data, showing that since the Vietnam war the numerical relation between democrats and republicans in the military has very fundamentally changed, almost reversed accoridng to the USAWC study now, and that the link between being Republican camps and fundamentalist evangelical policies and opinions is extremely strong - its not really matching reality to say that Republicans "always" had been totally dominating in the military - this total dominance has devceloped over the past 3 or 4 decades only. also it was pointed out that the group pressure on people to join the fundamental christian orientation in units and branches of the army forces is extremely strong and reaches as far as open mobbing of people, denying them any career chances if they resist, and isolating them if they do withhold themselves from joining the belief of their units, or do not attend the service of their evangelical unit caplan. And finally, it was pointed out that in the past years under Bush, radical evangelical camps were able to push their people in up to 50% of those positions representing higher command ranks and planning and decision making positions. Not dangerous? So, there is a very great danger indeed, by evangelical dogma dominating percpetion of reality and decision making on questions of war and peace, and how to wage wars and with what objectives, and growing religious intolerance in the army. By influencing both the composition of the army, and the way in which threats to the US from the outside get evaluated, the thread this developement poses isheavily influencing US policy. This is not the army from the time of vietnam, and it is not the army fighting in WWII. And I would rate the Iraq '03 and also the person of Bush himself war as one symptom of this dangerous developement. Look were both have led America. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-22-07, 11:48 AM	#3
CB.. Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: UK Posts: 1,278 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	generaly speaking you would have to feel it to be disturbing to have any group that fermently believes in armageddon to have even the most marginal influence over military decisions....as they may well generate a "self fullfilling prophecy"..why work for any possible peacefull soloution if you are 100% sure that all will end in destruction...??? that is they by definition will have precious little FAITH in any positive outcome..and may even believe any peacefull outcome to be "the work of the devil"....having had some little contact with "bouncy castle" fundamentalist christianity here in the UK, i can say without any doubt what so ever that the above mind set is nothing out of ordinary at all..fairly left wing in fact as far as Fundamentalist thinking goes... __________________ the world's tinyiest sh3 supermod- and other SH3/SH2 stuff http://www.ebort2.co.uk/ The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. W.B.Yeats

11-22-07, 06:47 PM	#5
CB.. Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: UK Posts: 1,278 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	ah but if one is really so sure....what need is there for faith...?? one wonders __________________ the world's tinyiest sh3 supermod- and other SH3/SH2 stuff http://www.ebort2.co.uk/ The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. W.B.Yeats

11-22-07, 07:10 PM	#6
Happy Times Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 2,950 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	If this would be the road America takes, it will have to take it without Europe. Good bye and good luck. __________________

11-26-07, 06:48 PM	#13
LtCmdrRat Gunner Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: My mind is My Fortress Posts: 100 Downloads: 110 Uploads: 0	Quote from Mr. Robbins: "What we are supposed to have in America is freedom OF religion, "Congress shall make no law infringing..." not "freedom FROM religion." That, sirs, is a socialist concept we cannot tolerate. " So I think when I was immigrating to USA I had wrong ideas of liberties. I hoped that America had both freedom of religion and freedom from religion I hoped that America has tolerable culture but America doesnt tolerate socialism ideas( does rights even read Marx?) Freedom of speech is left for your private conversations with your friends in private house. I hoped that America has good judical system and I was right that Justice in America is the best staff that money can buy. ps EVERYTHING ABOVE IS JUST MY SARCASM. My neighbour is really missing America but America from yesterday not today's America. Is he right? __________________ A joke is a very serious thing... sir winston churchill.

11-21-07, 09:06 PM	#1
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Theres a never ending vicious cycle thats been at work for some time. You push a group of people, they push back harder. If atheists or christians stopped shoving at each other (im ambivilant to both), and realized that their rights end, where the other persons nose begins (both literally and figuratively), then maybe that subject will finally go the way of the dodo bird. Until such time, it will be a never ending social tug of war, with no end in sight. As an aside, people, and their views, are products of their enviorment in which they've lived. Not everyone experiences the bad things that are derived from sterotypes, others do. The trick remains to keep the bad experiences in perspective and not paint with a wide brush, but always the bad experiences remain, and they're never forgotton, so it often becomes very hard. (theres a story behind that, but its much too personal) edit: BTW , RR, please dont take offense at my views on this subject. My personality is often just frank bluntless, mixed with a heavy seasoning of sarchasm, with a "hell bent for leather" attitude, for want of a better term. I think im hardwired that way. Imagine my surpise when i met some long lost relatives from one of my genetic parients and found ALL OF EM are just like that. Good christ!

11-22-07, 05:58 PM	#4
Iceman Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mesa AZ, Arizona, USA Posts: 1,253 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Look at the world around you realistically and quit living fantasy star trek, we all will overcome nonsense, and smell the coffee.It is not only silly but folly to believe that man will "ever" EVER! overcome it differences in faith,politics, and the like in time to save this world...face reality please and concede to the facts of life.... 1. The atmosphere is polluted beyond repair. 2. The food supplies are not in good shape and if they are the ones who have starve the have nots. 3. Those in power around the globe will never Never agree to share control. 4. We daily poison ourselves with pollution and crappy foods. 5. This is not just America either but it is a concerted effort by ALL. 6. WE Kill 7. WE Steal 8. We Sin against others and ourselves. These are facts...non disputed by scientists and the like. Please please! tell me what possible hope you have that I may believe in it. The world offers death on a silver platter. Christ offers life. Tell me what is wrong with that? Have a good day.

11-25-07, 04:39 AM	#12
Stealth Hunter Silent Hunter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Y'ha-Nthlei Posts: 4,262 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	Hell, I get on a plane for a vacation in California, and people stare at me like I'm going to blow them up just because I look Middle-Eastern (and- well, it's true; but Iranians aren't terrorists...). Ugly mess all the way around. I'm an American citizen, and damn proud to be one, as am I also damn proud to be Iranian.