Blue on blue incident in Afghanistan

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by Hakahura

Yet another display of the USAF's poor acuracy in battle.

Again at the expense of UK servicemen.

Despite the RAF's continuous close air support of US troops in both Iraq and Afganstan the UK has yet to bomb any US forces. The RAF is infact the preferred choice of UK and US forces in both theatres, for close air support. Doing it with older and more antquainted airframes as well.

Does this yet again say something about US pilot training? Or is it a case of a cultural attitude that leans towards "Triggerhappy"?

Friendly fire is anything but!

Still something to learn America?

I think so.

From the small article linked to here you make those comments?

You make alot of ASSumptions...But I will consider the source.

[Tchocky]

More info..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6962071.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6962255.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6962926.stm

[Steel_Tomb]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Not again! Maybe our pilots are getting tired, and maybe the Brits should pick up their slack for a bit? What the ratio of American sorties vs UK? I'm guessing 50 to 100 to 1, so there is probably 100 times more likelyhood that this will happen to the US instead of the Brits, but why do we always keep hitting the Brits when it happens??!!! Uggh!

-S

How dare you, the troops, on all sides are tired. But the British Army is streched to the limits, and they do a damned hard job out there. Just because the RAF isn't in the same numbers as USAF units doesn't mean that the brits are "slacking". My dads been out to Iraq three times now and worked his arse off every time. So don't even think about saying that the british forces are slacking. I'm sorry if I sound really up front and rude but I just don't like it when people start accusing the british armed forces of "slacking" etc. Especially with the poor standard of equipment they are using (apart from things like the EF2K and new type 45 of course).

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Iceman

From the small article linked to here you make those comments?

You make alot of ASSumptions...But I will consider the source.

Well, the only BoB incidents from the Afghanistan/Iraq I've heard have been done by the US. Simpson from BBC, the Canadian (orwas he a Brit too, cant remember) and now this.

But what can one do to it? Nothing! We all make mistakes and in situations like these are, it just happens. Like the friendly fire incident during the Gulf war, where the two AH-64s destroyed an M113 & Bradley just because wind had drifted their choppers further away as was intended.

[Jimbuna]

Even though everyone accepts all BoB are unintentional I believe they are becoming so frequent peoples patience is waining with those in the military who don't seem able to lessen the number of incidents

[Tchocky]

Hmph.
It's the Times, unfortunately.

[ASWnut101]

How sad. Unfortunatally, mistakes are made, and there are consequences (as shown).



After looking at this, I'm beginning to wonder if the bomb dropped was laser guided.

A somewhat recent bug had been discovered with the man-portable laser guidance units (the thing that the soldier points/"paints" at the target to have a bomb dropped on it). Apparently, when the batteries in the unit run out and are replaced, the laser somehow defaults to the emitter's location, rather than what the emitter is pointing at.

It's already happened in Afghanastan to one of our own. Poor guy quickly changed the batteries while the bomb was in flight, didn't realize the bug, and the bomb dropped on his location.

With soldiers on the ground carrying GPS devices there should be much less of this happening.

Again, it depends on the weapon used. A GPS reading would be next to worthless if the weapon used was laser guided or unguided.

07.04 - 02:00 - Podgorica
French Mirage 2000. Missile missed but pilot ejected anyway.

:rotfl:

Yet another display of the USAF's poor acuracy in battle.

Poor accuracy my ass.

The RAF is infact the preferred choice of UK and US forces in both theatres, for close air support. Doing it with older and more antquainted airframes as well.

Do you have any proof of that? Or are you talking out of your butt?

Does this yet again say something about US pilot training? Or is it a case of a cultural attitude that leans towards "Triggerhappy"?

Or does this say something about the reliablility of current equipment issued to our sides? Or suggest that the brits could have been at fault? Of course, someone is probably going to unload on me for saying the latter, but it's a damn fine possibility right up there with "poor accuracy."

I think that Brad said it correct early in this thread. We will most likely not know until they release more information.




Why did my text go bold?

[micky1up]

amazing how its never a uk on uk incident it always involves a US force when will they ever learn



and its all about attitude not equipment the american forces have always been too gung ho

[bigboywooly]

1991 - American A-10 during Operation Desert Storm attacks British armoured personnel carriers killing nine British soldiers (the same number as were killed by enemy fire in the whole war).
1992 - USS Saratoga during a no-notice exercise that included a simulated RIM-7 launch; confusion ensued, and a sailor launched into the bridge of the Turkishdestroyer Muavenet killing 5.
1994 - In the Black Hawk Incident, two U.S. Air ForceF-15E Strike Eagles involved with Operation Provide Comfort shot down two U.S. ArmyUH-60 Black Hawks over northern Iraq, killing 29 military and civilian personnel.
2001 - AmericanF/A-18 dropped 3 Mk-82 bombs on a friendly observation post killing six and wounding 11 at Al Udairi Range, Kuwait.
2002 - AmericanF-16 pilot dropped a 500 lb (228 kg) bomb on Canadian soldiers performing a live-fire exercise, killing four and injuring another 8 in the Tarnak Farm incident.
2003

• American aircraft attacked a friendly Kurdish & U.S. Special Forces convoy, killing 15. BBC translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed was killed and BBC reporter Tom Giles and World Affairs Editor John Simpson were injured. The incident was filmed. [11]
• AmericanPatriot missile shot down in error F/A-18C Block 46 Hornet 164974 of VFA-195 50 mi from Karbala, Iraq, killing the pilot.
• AmericanPatriot missile shot down a British Panavia Tornado GR.4A ZG710 'D' of 13 Squadron killing the pilot and navigator, Flight Lieutenant David Rhys Williams and Flight Lieutenant Kevin Barry Main, both from 9 Squadron
• British Royal Marine Christopher Maddison killed when his river patrol boat was hit by missiles after being wrongly identified as an enemy vessel approaching a Royal Engineers checkpoint on the Al-Faw Peninsula, Iraq.[6]
• British Challenger 2 tank came under fire from another British tank in a nighttime firefight, blowing off the turret and killing two crew members, Corporal Stephen John Allbutt and Trooper David Jeffrey Clarke [12]
• 190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident - March 28, 2003 when a pair of AmericanA-10s from the 190th Fighter Squadron attack four British armoured reconnaissance vehicles of the Blues and Royals, killing Lance-Corporal of HorseMatty Hull, during the invasion of Iraq.

2004 - Pat Tillman, famous American football player and friendly fire victim in Afghanistan.
2005

• American soldier Mario Lozano is suspected of killing Italian intelligence officer Nicola Calipari and wounding Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena in Baghdad. Sgrena had been kidnapped and subsequently rescued by Calipari; however, it is claimed that the car they were escaping in failed to stop at an American checkpoint, and U.S. soldiers opened fire.
• American troops opened fire on a Bulgarian convoy. Junior Sergeant Gardi Gardev was killed.

2006

• During Operation Medusa, two U.S.A-10 Thunderbolt IIs strafed their own NATO forces in southern Afghanistan, killing Canadian Private Mark Anthony Graham, and seriously wounding five others when soldiers were trying to seize a Taliban stronghold along the Arghandab River. Graham was a former Canadian Olympic athlete who competed on the Canadian 4x400 Men's Relay Team at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics.
• A U.S.machine gunner accidentally shot (from behind) and killed Canadian Pvt. Robert Costall and Vermont National Guard Sgt. John Thomas near Kandahar, in Afghanistan.

2007

• American airstrike killed eight Kurdish Iraqi soldiers. [13]
• U.S. forces kill seven Afghan police officers.[14]
• One of a pair USAFF-15s called in to support British ground forces in Afganistan dropped a bomb on those forces, killing three soldiers of the 1st Battalion, the Royal Anglian Regiment, and injuring two others.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire

[JALU3]

A day when blue on blue ends, would be a day in paradise, until images on the HUD or visor projector are painted blue and red like in video games . . . and every soldier has a transponder that enables that (which hopefully the opposing side wont be able to use to their advantage) . . . then it will still occur.

Sad the realities of the fog of war . . . and the speed of modern combat.

[JALU3]

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

1991 - American A-10 during Operation Desert Storm attacks British armoured personnel carriers killing nine British soldiers (the same number as were killed by enemy fire in the whole war).
1992 - USS Saratoga during a no-notice exercise that included a simulated RIM-7 launch; confusion ensued, and a sailor launched into the bridge of the Turkishdestroyer Muavenet killing 5.
1994 - In the Black Hawk Incident, two U.S. Air ForceF-15E Strike Eagles involved with Operation Provide Comfort shot down two U.S. ArmyUH-60 Black Hawks over northern Iraq, killing 29 military and civilian personnel.
2001 - AmericanF/A-18 dropped 3 Mk-82 bombs on a friendly observation post killing six and wounding 11 at Al Udairi Range, Kuwait.
2002 - AmericanF-16 pilot dropped a 500 lb (228 kg) bomb on Canadian soldiers performing a live-fire exercise, killing four and injuring another 8 in the Tarnak Farm incident.
2003

• American aircraft attacked a friendly Kurdish & U.S. Special Forces convoy, killing 15. BBC translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed was killed and BBC reporter Tom Giles and World Affairs Editor John Simpson were injured. The incident was filmed. [11]
• AmericanPatriot missile shot down in error F/A-18C Block 46 Hornet 164974 of VFA-195 50 mi from Karbala, Iraq, killing the pilot.
• AmericanPatriot missile shot down a British Panavia Tornado GR.4A ZG710 'D' of 13 Squadron killing the pilot and navigator, Flight Lieutenant David Rhys Williams and Flight Lieutenant Kevin Barry Main, both from 9 Squadron
• British Royal Marine Christopher Maddison killed when his river patrol boat was hit by missiles after being wrongly identified as an enemy vessel approaching a Royal Engineers checkpoint on the Al-Faw Peninsula, Iraq.[6]
• British Challenger 2 tank came under fire from another British tank in a nighttime firefight, blowing off the turret and killing two crew members, Corporal Stephen John Allbutt and Trooper David Jeffrey Clarke [12]
• 190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident - March 28, 2003 when a pair of AmericanA-10s from the 190th Fighter Squadron attack four British armoured reconnaissance vehicles of the Blues and Royals, killing Lance-Corporal of HorseMatty Hull, during the invasion of Iraq.

2004 - Pat Tillman, famous American football player and friendly fire victim in Afghanistan.
2005

• American soldier Mario Lozano is suspected of killing Italian intelligence officer Nicola Calipari and wounding Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena in Baghdad. Sgrena had been kidnapped and subsequently rescued by Calipari; however, it is claimed that the car they were escaping in failed to stop at an American checkpoint, and U.S. soldiers opened fire.
• American troops opened fire on a Bulgarian convoy. Junior Sergeant Gardi Gardev was killed.

2006

• During Operation Medusa, two U.S.A-10 Thunderbolt IIs strafed their own NATO forces in southern Afghanistan, killing Canadian Private Mark Anthony Graham, and seriously wounding five others when soldiers were trying to seize a Taliban stronghold along the Arghandab River. Graham was a former Canadian Olympic athlete who competed on the Canadian 4x400 Men's Relay Team at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics.
• A U.S.machine gunner accidentally shot (from behind) and killed Canadian Pvt. Robert Costall and Vermont National Guard Sgt. John Thomas near Kandahar, in Afghanistan.

2007

• American airstrike killed eight Kurdish Iraqi soldiers. [13]
• U.S. forces kill seven Afghan police officers.[14]
• One of a pair USAFF-15s called in to support British ground forces in Afganistan dropped a bomb on those forces, killing three soldiers of the 1st Battalion, the Royal Anglian Regiment, and injuring two others.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire

Could it be possible that there is just better documentation of US blue and blue incidents . . . remember Wikipedia is what is submitted . . . and what is editted out. It is suppose to be neutral . . . but there are dozens of articles where there is an obvious bias . . .
. . . so lets start with the US bashing . . . that's what this leads to no? That the US is evil, and the root of all evil in modern societies around the globe . . .

Lets see this what this is, an unfortunate accident. People will be blamed, people will spend time in brigs and prisons . . . and these events will still occur . . .

A tragedy.

War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.
William Tecumseh Sherman

Unfortunately some will not allow cruel victory, and will allow slow defeat.

What I'm about to say will not sit well with some.

If you want your soldier sons to be saved war must be total from the start until all restence is destroyed. Friendly fire may never be removed from the battlefield but prolonged danger can be minimized.

[Chock]

This is obviously very sad, but unfortunately, it is what happens when bullets, bombs, missiles and military aeroplanes are flying around while troops are advancing, and nobody should be under any illusion that these things will not continue to happen, as long as wars do.

'Friendly fire' incidents have always happened in wars, (the first RAF Spitfire shot down in the Battle of Britain was nailed by an RAF Hurricane). Most bomber forces in WW2 used to work on the basis that up to ten percent of the force would be lost in collisions while forming up before they even set off for their target, and a proportion of the lower formations would be hit by bombs falling from aircraft flying above them. There are countless other examples I could quote too. But of course with the internet, news satellites etc etc, incidents such as these are simply more widely reported these days.

Although it often seems that the US appear to have more friedly fire incidents than other forces, I think it's fair to say the likelihood that they will, is in large part due to their numbers in comparison to other coalition forces. So proportionally, they are probably no worse than any other army in this. It's true the US gained a reputation for incidents of this nature in WW2, when they did indeed hit many Allied troops, but one has to remember that they were there in larger numbers than anyone else then as well. And everybody in the UK was glad of their numbers when they were putting ten landing craft onto the beaches at Normandy for every one the British landed there, weren't they? Incidents of this nature are the price you pay for that numerical superiority.

And yes it is true that some American servicemen have what is euphemistically termed a 'gung-ho attitude', but so do some UK servicemen and probably every other nation as well. However, the newspapers do not report stories about examplary soldiers, because that is 'boring', they only pick up on things which will outrage readers and sell newspapers. It is this kind of crap, poor editorial and journalistic integrity, which made me decide to leave the newspaper industry some years ago and write freelance instead.

When the newpapers report on all the successful missions as much as they do on the ones which go 'tits up' I'll have a bit more respect for them.

Note that, as someone queried, with regard to the A10 Thunderbolt II (or Warthog as everyone calls it) and what will happen when it retires, you might be interested to know that a contract has recently been awarded, which will see these aircraft extensively serviced, Boeing winning the contract to 're-wing' them (for example) to extend their service lives. Since the A10 is one of the best close-support aircraft ever, hopefully this, at least, will help to minimise the chances of this sort of tragic occurence.

Chock

[micky1up]

Originally Posted by JALU3

Could it be possible that there is just better documentation of US blue and blue incidents . . . remember Wikipedia is what is submitted . . . and what is editted out. It is suppose to be neutral . . . but there are dozens of articles where there is an obvious bias . . .
. . . so lets start with the US bashing . . . that's what this leads to no? That the US is evil, and the root of all evil in modern societies around the globe . . .

Lets see this what this is, an unfortunate accident. People will be blamed, people will spend time in brigs and prisons . . . and these events will still occur . . .

absolutley not blue on blue is not a regular occurence with uk forces FACT its quiet clearly an attitude thing with the US and its not US bashing its just a plain fact and like i said its not about equipment its the people behind it you had lesser equipment in vietnam and still had a significant amount of friendly fire incidents

[ASWnut101]

Originally Posted by micky1up

and its all about attitude not equipment the american forces have always been too gung ho

absolutley not blue on blue is not a regular occurence with uk forces FACT its quiet clearly an attitude thing with the US and its not US bashing its just a plain fact and like i said its not about equipment its the people behind it you had lesser equipment in vietnam and still had a significant amount of friendly fire incidents