SH4 - post 1.2 status: A Plan of Action

[CaptainCox]

Wow!..how come they have taken a decision like that? money, time?
Not normal for a game of this caliber, to stop patching after 2 month of a release...is it. OK its not HALO bleeding 5 or something but SH is still a big franchise as a SIM compared to other SIM's.....or is it a marketing trick...I wonder...

Well if it comes to the worst we have to demand a SDK!

[Beery]

Originally Posted by CaptainCox

Wow!..how come they have taken a decision like that? money, time?

As I understand it from what I've read elsewhere the decision is being made based on the budget.

[jdkbph]

Hmmm... I thought this was a no brainer and everyone would understand where I was coming from. It was not my intent to create division in the ranks... for that I apologize.

I do tend to be a bit verbose at times, causing people to skim through the post and miss any valid points I might make... and that may be at the root of some of the arguments in this thread. Again, I apologize. But let me try to make good by making it simple.

I am not advocating a law suit. In fact I was a bit derisive in the way I presented that option.

I do not want a refund either. However, nothing is more effective in getting your point of view across than reaching into someone's pocket. More effective than witholding money (ie, refusing to purchase in the first place), more effective than the threat of future boycott, more effective than demanding justice in a forum such as this... and certainly more effective than doing nothing.

As to doing nothing until UBI makes their final decision on whether to do another patch?... IMHO, that's too late. See my comment above RE not wanting a refund. I want a fix. Failing to apply whatever leverage we may be able to generate while there's still time to affect the patch decision will not serve my purpose, at least.

Whether or not Mssr. Guillemot takes our complaints seriously is beside the point. I expect that he will not. What he may take seriously however is a request for a response to our complaints coming from the California State Attorney General. In fact I'm counting more on that than I am on convincing him with my initial complaint letter to see reason.

Regarding the actual vs the perceived state (vis-a-vis 80% reviews) of the product from an outsider's point of view...? Reviews (read, one man's opinion) mean virtually nothing... particularly when the company who made the product is advertising in that publication. The state of the product can best be determined by comparing promised or advertised features and functionality (eg, magazine and web site advertising and the game manual are two good sources) to actual features and functionality.

And if anyone is interested... the legal principle in play here (again, speaking only for the US) is called "implied warranty". Specifically, "merchantability" and "fitness for a particular purpose". Having had this conversation before with the CT state AG's office, I believe I am correct in stating that the former applies here. The question an AG will be interested in is whether or not the product released was actually ready and suitable for commercial sale.

And before anyone says it <g>... UBI can "disclaim" all they want, but many states in the US (including California and Connecticut) do not allow manufacturers to disclaim implied warranties... at least not in the way UBI attempts to do it in their EULA

To summarize: this is not about law suits or temper tantrums or playing at Don Quixote... this is about making use of a viable mechanism provided for the express purpose of protecting consumers from purveyors of defective product.


JD

[KPII]

This is an excellent initiative! I have just been through the same circus with Medieval II Total War and I regret that I didn't do something more proactive like this. As to the refund then I would suggest donating it to either charity or the open source sub sim project I read about somewhere ... even better, let's collect the refunds and use it to send the UBI staff on a free course in software quality assurance ... and history 101 if we have the funds

[heartc]

Originally Posted by Beery

Remember that Ubisoft is both the publisher and developer of SH4.

A company that releases a broken product and refuses to fix it doesn't deserve to stay in business. Customers should be actively trying to get such a company out of business because for every large company that serves its customers poorly there are always two or three companies overshadowed by such a company who want to serve the customer better, and they will hire devs who do good work (so Ubi devs won't go hungry) and hopefully they'll avoid publishers who serve the customer poorly.

Well, all I can say is that I hope you're right in that. Fact is that the simulation market - or the simulation offerings - has taken a big hit and has become a niche market amongst all those FPS, console games, Online RPGs and moronic "Sims" computer games. In a way, I agree very much that you should not allow mediocre products being put on the market just because you are afraid to not get anything else. On the other hand, it might just be like that. I don't know. I just know that Microprose, SSI, Ocean, DiD, Digital Integration, Jane's, etc. are all gone already. There's not much left. All hail to anyone taking up the torch to run with it, but I don't see any indication for this happening anytime soon.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by heartc

Fact is that the simulation market - or the simulation offerings - has taken a big hit and has become a niche market...

They've been proclaiming the imminent death of the sim market for ten years, but somehow sims keep getting made.

[AVGWarhawk]

To summarize: this is not about law suits or temper tantrums or playing at Don Quixote... this is about making use of a viable mechanism provided for the express purpose of protecting consumers from purveyors of defective product.

That is they way I read your original post. I made my email and sent it off.

[DS]

Originally Posted by Beery

They've been proclaiming the imminent death of the sim market for ten years, but somehow sims keep getting made.

But not in the numbers, or the complexity, that they used to be. Look at the combat jet scene. The last jet sims (my other hobby) that I can think of with complex avionics was Falcon 4.0 and Jane's FA-18, and they are about 10 years old now. The very few jet sims have come out in the last 10 years have had arcade avionics (though LOMAC did have excellent flight models). As a result, I still fly 4.0 (Free Falcon build) and occasionally Jane's F-15 and FA-18. The graphics are dated, buit there is still nothing comparable on the market in the last 10 years.

When it comes to sub sims, all there is Sonalysts (who do this as a side diversion from real life work), and the SH franchise, which we are kicking in the teeth.

So no, combat sims aren't dead, but they are (IMO) a faint shadow of what they used to be in terms of numbers and detail.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by DS

But not in the numbers, or the complexity, that they used to be. Look at the combat jet scene. The last jet sims (my other hobby) that I can think of with complex avionics was Falcon 4.0 and Jane's FA-18, and they are about 10 years old now. The very few jet sims have come out in the last 10 years have had arcade avionics (though LOMAC did have excellent flight models). As a result, I still fly 4.0 (Free Falcon build) and occasionally Jane's F-15 and FA-18. The graphics are dated, buit there is still nothing comparable on the market in the last 10 years.

When it comes to sub sims, all there is Sonalysts (who do this as a side diversion from real life work), and the SH franchise, which we are kicking in the teeth.

So no, combat sims aren't dead, but they are (IMO) a faint shadow of what they used to be in terms of numbers and detail.

Okay, but that's hardly because the market for them really changed. What happened was that the industry changed - FPS games became the types of games that were best able to push the edge of the envelope in terms of graphics. It had nothing to do with the sim genre dying - it was just that manufacturers found engines that did FPS well and players wanted the most appealing graphics. Flight sims weren't where it was at anymore. Once flight sims get graphics that are as advanced as the FPS games, and once the current batch of mediocre flight sim developers are gone, the genre will be picked up by companies that can do what Dynamix and the Falcon crew did and the genre will rise again.

[joea]

Originally Posted by Beery

It IS an historical fact. As I understand it the devs are putting their case to the suits to release another patch. As things stand the decision has been made to stop further patching. The decision can be reversed but the dev team have to plead for the reversal.

I realise that denial is part of the process of accepting that we've been screwed, but this is ridiculous.

As for us not being in a position to threaten, we buy the games. Plus we have certain heavy-duty rights as consumers. If we don't have the ultimate power who does?

Right I belong to the camp that wants another patch ... 100% but tell me how do you know this for a fact? Has there been an open, clear announcement that there won't be another patch? If so point me to it please.

[DS]

Ref: Future of sims

I like the future you predict. I hope it comes to be.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Beery

As for us not being in a position to threaten, we buy the games. Plus we have certain heavy-duty rights as consumers. If we don't have the ultimate power who does?

Yeh, you bought the game and it works. You can install it, start it and play it. So it works. That's pretty much the only thing Ubi has to care if they sell a game. There's no law to force them to patch the game. Some features are broken, yes, but if someone would sue Ubi over that or demand their money back, all they'd have to do is say "We meant it that way".

So, no we are not in the position to threaten them.

[jdkbph]

I'm addressing this to those who throughout this thread insist on misrepresenting or twisting my initial suggestions for constructive action. A shafting from UBI is one thing. The in fighting and antagonism here is quite another.

I'm honestly beginning to wonder whether we're dealing with UBI shills, a clique of fan-boy apologists, or just folks who have reading/comprehension issues.

It's frustrating.

My message is simple. If you don't like what's happening here, DO SOMETHING.

Preferably something constructive.

I offered a suggestion for constructive action above (first post in this thread). And again... I've actually done this before... it works. But if it doesn't work for you for some reason, find something that does. Most civilized countries have consumer protection mechanisms in place for just this type of thing.

Even if, in the strictest sense of the consumer law where you live, we don't have much of a case... and I'd have a hard time believing that for a second... just the act of filing the complaint and initiating an investigation or intervention by a govenment agency may have a positive effect.

And even if it's not really a refund you're after, do it for no other reason than to make UBI feel some of our pain. Go out and buy the game again afterward if you really want to. There are 2 dozen copies available on eBay as I type this.

Bottom line... if you've got a problem with UBI and their handling of this situation, and you DON'T take some positive action to help yourself - and I don't mean groveling for a patch, throwing temper tantrums or making boycot threats in a web forum- you deserve what you're going to get.... this time and from now on.

JD

[Keelbuster]

Originally Posted by heartc

Both of which were pretty damn good and do not exist anymore.
Ocean: TFX, EF-2000, Tactcom, etc
SSI: Oh, where to start? SHI, Harpoon, Great Naval Battles, Su-27 Flanker, Panzer General, etc. etc.

It works, indeed. :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

I sort of agree - i feel like Ubi deserves to be punished way more than a smaller firm that tries to produce quality and falls short. Game companies that shoot for quality seem so few that we need to preserve them, and on the other hand, we need to help kill their competition.

[the_belgian]

Originally Posted by Jungman

I think simply another route. Give us the tools by Ubisoft from the devs to change the hardcoded data and such. Is that what a SDK is?:p

Let us fans with computer skill do the work. Labor of love for the game. It really is the best way than a lawsuit.

Rowan did give the codes to the DEV-team in order to make Battle of Britain,Wings of Victory a growing sim. thanks to the BDG members(wich i'm proud to be a,small,member of)the sim is,after so many years,still up to date!!!

look at http://shockwaveproductions.com/foru...forum.php?f=10