Why it would be better to Command Japanese Subs

[heartc]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Those three are only a few examples. The Allies during World War II did not have too much respect for human lives. Granted, they didn't have death camps (even though the US built concentration camps for Japanese), but they were not particularly nice people either.

Yep, those nasty Allies. Having little respect for human lives in a World War. Too bad they won. Whatever with those death camps - maybe that is just a rumor anyway. Yep.

[Schatten]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Those three are only a few examples. The Allies during World War II did not have too much respect for human lives. Granted, they didn't have death camps (even though the US built concentration camps for Japanese), but they were not particularly nice people either.

During a total war a lot of people don't have a whole lot of respect for human life, it's just the way humans are. What I meant was that the (Western) Allies didn't systematically undertake to commit genocide or organize atrocities on a large and/or coordinated scale and that seemed to be the contention of the previous post. Yes attrocities did happen on all sides and even American troops perpetrated some, I know of at least one incident from an eyewitness account, but they weren't organized or condoned by the chain of command and were usually the result of mentally exhausted small units who'd simply seen too much and weren't in a merciful mood when confronted with the perpetrators of the organized attrocities that they'd come across. It doesn't excuse it, but it wasn't systematic on our end. There may not be a world of legal difference between the incidents of GIs shooting SS men attempting to surrender after those same GIs had just liberated Buchenwald and commonly understood war crimes, but to me there's a huge moral difference.

As for the Nisei camps the times were different then, and a lot of people just weren't very well educated on the different types of Japanese immigrants here. They were the result of widespread fear among the American population. I don't condone them, but I also wouldn't paint them as concentration camps either because of the connotation that term has because of what the Germans did. Death Camps aside, even a "regular" German concentration camp was magnitudes worse than anything that happened in the US. A total of 5 Japanese were confirmed killed by guards in the US camps during the entire course of the program. That's not excusible either, but it's pale in comparison to the German camps of any kind so using the term Concentration Camp evokes a certain image in one's mind that isn't really comparable in my opinion.

I'd also make the distinction between the Western Allies and the Soviets, which did have a systematic program of attrocities against not only their enemies but also their own people before, during and after the war.

Sorry to belabor the point, but it gets my dander up a little when I see moral equivilency arguments about the sides in WWII.

But like I said, that wouldn't prevent me from trying out a Japanese sub addon, although like it's been said it would be sort of limited unless you changed history somewhat and went after Allied shipping instead of going after Allied warships. It makes me wonder at what point do can you still have an accurate sim when the only way to make it "fun" (or survivable really) would be to change the tactics used by the players to the point that they completely went against the actual doctrine of the IJN at the time you know? If you went after shipping it would be more survivable, but also historically innacurate, while if you went solely after combat ships your campaign would be pretty short indeed. So it's a tough call.

[Wulfmann]

First of all, war is in itself an atrocity.

Second, the most despicable act in human history was the holocaust. Nazis Germans that were in charge directed many others, murdered 10.5 million people including 4.5 million Jews (6 million Jews died in WWII total from all causes, Israeli gov figures)

But, the German have taken responsibility (as much as can be considered possible as there will never be atonement).

I have been to both Israel and Germany and spoke with many people on this subject. It is not swept under the rug as some suggest. Germany had paid huge reparations to Israel and individuals.
Japan, however, refuses to even talk about the dastardly atrocities it committed. The Germans never treated American prisoners in the despicable manner the Japanese did.
They’re continued silence and refusal to pay compensation to me is like a crime gone unpunished. The people I spoke to in China liked Americans fine but they hate with a passion the Japanese and it is more the lack of admitting to what they did that causes this bad feeling.

The Russians take the cake for mistreating their own people. In that there is not contest. I spoke with a Russian official in Spain in 1993 and he estimates 20 million Russians were killed by Stalin in purges and 30 million would be possible.

Dresden had many refugees because of the shrinking front and we will never know the true number. 30,000 is not realistic nor is 200,000 both seem to serve the wants of those making the estimates. The likely number is 80-100,000 but there will never be a way to know for sure. Even though it was meant to show the Russians what they could expect (and did not work hence Hiroshima and Nagasaki) we were at war and any such city was a target. Germans blame the war not the Yanks or Brits for Dresden.

You can’t target soldiers with exploding bullets but if you aim for their equipment it is legal. So you aim for the belt buckle. How stupid is that? And, you can throw exploding hand grenades but can’t fire exploding bullets. Who thinks this is at all rational.

Anyone that advocates starting a war should be ready to be burnt to the ground and every person killed. If we dropped all rules for conducting war and made it open to any means perhaps there would be fewer wars. War is insanity unleashed. Pleading insanity for a war crime would be close to the truth.

Wulfmann

[Corsair]

Remembers me of a well known sentence of the "hippie" 7Os :

"What would happen if they called up a war and nobody came ?"

[Theta Sigma]

There are many well written posts in opposition to this (mod?), but I don't think that this thread is neccesarily a true cross section of the market for an IJN experience within SH, nor should it be considered one. (I know that would apply to my post too, but what can you do?)

I think I make it pretty clear what side I'd like to play on, and it isn't because it's the winning side. The allies won the war, and SH is predominatly a German atlantic theatre game experience. I know there are people who feel the American experience should be next in line, but I never saw major oposition to SH3 focusing on U-Boats again when SH3 came out. It was a better experience for the fact the boats were better, yeah, but I also think there's a little of that "bad guy" desire too. We usually like to be on the bad side. It's more fun to be Khan than Kirk, you know.

I get it that some may want fulfill their recreationist dreams through the game, playing it out as it happened, with enforced limitations as to how things should turn out, but equally so, people want the enemy side experience too. I don't expect to win the war, but I'd like to try and win a few battles. At least let me have the opportunity. I'm in it for the experience, not necessarily for a fast turn, or quick dive.

It seems written in stone that I won't get IJN gameplay in SHIV, but if Ubi doesn't leak that SHV will be IJN based, then they should take part in an aftermarket IJN mod for SHIV. Yes, I'd pay for it too.

Banzai...

Originally Posted by Incubus

6. Rendezvous missions with German U-boats to exchange critical information about technologies/nuclear secrets.

Or undead human hearts from notorious german experiments.

Someone has to get that reference...

[Chaotic42]

Nah, I'm ready to play as America again. I haven't played a sub game as an American in like 13 years. Too many things are Japanese these days anyway.

[Theta Sigma]

Originally Posted by Chaotic42

Nah, I'm ready to play as America again. I haven't played a sub game as an American in like 13 years. Too many things are Japanese these days anyway.

LOL. Well, they weren't back then.

Did you ever play Enigma: Rising Tide? I often played as an American in that. (As well as their "LFN" Japanese/UK alliance)

[marky]

cept that the jap suibz were also used for ferrying supplies, with empty torpedo rooms to make room for cargo

doesnt sound fun does it :rotfl:

[Theta Sigma]

Originally Posted by marky

cept that the jap suibz were also used for ferrying supplies, with empty torpedo rooms to make room for cargo

doesnt sound fun does it :rotfl:

Not all. Anyhow, let me worry about whether the sake gets there on time.

[Harry Buttle]

Originally Posted by TheSatyr

I can name 3 large scale Allied atrocities:

1) The destruction of the church city of Dresden. Had very little military value and was only done to terrorize the German people. Hundreds of thousands of civilians died there.

2)The fire bombing of Tokyo. Again,another bombing raid targeted primarily on civilians.

3)Nagasaki. While Hiroshima MIGHT have been necessary,Nagasaki was not. It was done more to send a message to the USSR than anything else.

I only just noticed these posts, more of the ever popular moral equivalence.

Dresden was a defended city and liable to be bombed like any other, Tokyo was also a defended city and the capital of Japan, Re Nagasaki, again a defended city, and Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.

Pretty much screaming to be bombed.

Originally Posted by TheSatyr

NO ONE'S hands were clean in WW2, All sides commited atrocities,both large and small.

A simple question, no matter how brutal the allies had to be to win, it all stopped once we won. is there anyone here who honestly believes Japanese and German atrocities would have stopped if the Allies had surrendered? that the death camps would have closed in 42 if the Brits had accepted that Hitler could rule all of Europe?

[Oesten]

IMO Ubi got it the wrong way round with SH3 and SH4.

SH3 should have been set in the Pacific Theatre, because the oldest game in the franchise was SH1, and that was set in the Pacific. Before SH3 came out, SH2 was the most recent Silent Hunter game, and that was in the Atlantic with U-boats.

So SH3 should have been in the Pacific IMO. And right now, the SH4 dev team would have been creating a much better U-boat sim, with wolfpacks and radio communications.


Anyway, regarding an SH4 Japanese sub addon or mod.....

I think due to the infrequency of action most Japanese subs saw during the war, an completely historically accurate Japanese sub dynamic campaign would be pretty boring.

The best way to do a Japanese addon to SH4, would be to have a 'what if' dynamic campaign in which the player is sent to attack Allied merchant ships whenever there isn't a major battle taking place in the Pacific. When there is a major battle about to happen during the campaign, the historical task forces should be coded into the campaign (as they are in the GWX mod) so the player can go and attack Allied warships and carry out historically accurate missions as well.

[LiveGoat]

"You fellas ain't gettin' Diddly *@#! outta me, except my name rank and social security number!"

--Slim Pickins

Originally Posted by I-25

Ahh 1941 a good one jeje i laugh my head off every time i watch the toilet scene:rotfl:

[Schatten]

"I bet you wanna bomb John Wayne's house doncha!"