Britain's frantic rush towards a fully fledged surveillance society - Page 3

STEED · 11-21-06, 07:59 AM

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Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

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Originally Posted by Godalmighty83

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Originally Posted by STEED

Why are so many people in England want the ID card I ask?

good job the majority are against id cards then isnt it.

How do you know that?

Nemo

Here's a example.

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76% Of Brits Reject ID Card
Paul Routledge London Mirror
Friday, November 17, 2006
JUST for the record: readers of the Yorkshire Post were asked in a phone-in poll if Identity Cards should be made compulsory. Seventysix out of 100 said "No", and 24 per cent said "Yes".
Remember that, next time government ministers claim - as they always do - that the overwhelming majority of Britons support the introduction of a compulsory ID card system.

STEED · 11-21-06, 08:03 AM

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Originally Posted by jumpy

I already have enough identification to prove who I am if required to, but I'll be damned if I have to show my 'papers' to some snotty little oik in a uniform in the middle of the street.

Well said jumpy

Why the heck do we need this ID card when we got plenty of ID now.

Captain Nemo · 11-21-06, 09:18 AM

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Originally Posted by STEED

Well Nemo answer this one.

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So you will not object to a government spy camera in every room of your house, including your bedroom, linked back to a police monitoring station? Apparently a lot of crime goes on behind closed doors. Child abuse, criminals conspiring, thieves dividing up their loot, drug dealers etc. The police could clear up a lot of crime with these new powers. Surely if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear?"

Still waiting for an answer to above

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

Are spy cameras and implanted electronic chips part of the ID card package then?

Why dose this country have more spy cameras than any other country's?

The ID card will be a biometric card of course it will have a electronic chip in it.

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Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

Steed I think you are going over the top with the 1984 scenario.

As of Jan 1st 2006 the police can arrest you without due course reason.

As a suggestion see how long you can stand outside Parliament protesting before the police turn up, feel free to try it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

Identity theft is happening now without ID cards in operation, so I don't see that they would increase crime in this area in fact they might even have the opposite effect.

I'm not talking about crime in your area.

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Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

What have we really to fear from a piece of plastic with details on it to prove who we are?

It's about the database state set up by this government, have you forgotten they are here to work for you not the other way around.

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Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

The only people that would need to worry are those who shouldn't be here in the first place.

Here's the answer

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Immigrants and asylum seekers are already subject to stringent ID checks and must have their fingerprints taken etc. Illegal immigrants often arrive with no ID whatsoever, having shredded their passports in an attempt to become faceless and backgroundless. A National ID Card will do precisely nothing to stop this problem. Many illegal immigrants knowingly face death to get to safer countries. Would ID cards stop people who are that desperate?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

As mentioned in earlier posts the ID card will show that you are a proud citizen of the UK and are entitled to the benefits that the country offers.

Why should I be proud of this ID Card? Seems to me other forum members from the U.K. are also against this card.

In answer to your first question, as mentioned in my earlier post, your well over the top with your 1984 scenario. Where would the resources come from to monitor each camera in each room of each home in the UK? It won't happen so there's nothing to object to.

On your second point, are they really spy cameras or there to try and prevent crime? I think the latter is the case (although to be honest I'm not sure if they actually prevent crime, but are good at presenting evidence to a court). I was referring to a chip implanted into your body to track you rather than a chip on the card. I have no doubt that a chip will be on the card.

On your third point, I agree that being arrested without reason is wrong (but before this they would have you on a trumped up charge anyway). It's also true about not being able to protest outside Parliament for long before being carted off to the nick. But is this as bad as 1984, I think not.

Point four, nor was I talking about crime in my area, I was referring to that aspect of crime.

Point five, as mentioned before there is so much info already held on each individual in the UK on databases what difference is one more going to make.

Point six, asylum seekers should be interned at point of entry into the UK and sent back to where they came from if they haven't got a good case to stay. I agree that the ID card wouldn't stop them coming but it might help in tracking them down if they try and disappear amongst the UK population.

Point seven, I'm not saying you should be proud of the card, but proud to be a UK citizen.

Nemo

STEED · 11-21-06, 09:27 AM

The case is this the RFID will be next after the ID card so if we the people sit back and say yes give me the card, this means the powers to be have already one there case for the RFID. I'm not saying the RFID will happen tomorrow or next year but the ID card will make it easy for those who want to push the RFID on to us.

Are you willing to pay for the ID card any where up to £200 for the card?

Captain Nemo · 11-21-06, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STEED

The case is this the RFID will be next after the ID card so if we the people sit back and say yes give me the card, this means the powers to be have already one there case for the RFID. I'm not saying the RFID will happen tomorrow or next year but the ID card will make it easy for those who want to push the RFID on to us.

Are you willing to pay for the ID card any where up to £200 for the card?

Excuse my ignorance, but what is RFID?

As mentioned in an earlier post, I would not be willing to pay any amount of money for the card and I also don't agree with an on the spot fine for not having it on you if asked to show it. My view is if the government want you to have it the card should be funded by the Treasury.

Nemo

STEED · 11-21-06, 09:55 AM

The RFID is all around you now.

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RFID stands for Radio Frequency IDentification, a technology that uses tiny computer chips smaller than a grain of sand to track items at a distance.

And yes the human implant version is here and in use.

Captain Nemo · 11-21-06, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STEED

The RFID is all around you now.

Quote:

RFID stands for Radio Frequency IDentification, a technology that uses tiny computer chips smaller than a grain of sand to track items at a distance.

And yes the human implant version is here and in use.

Steed, thanks for enlightening me.

Nemo

STEED · 11-21-06, 10:03 AM

Just to give you a balanced information, not pro or anti.

click the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID

TteFAboB · 11-21-06, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

I once had this discussion with a German dude on another forum and he had a very interesting viewpoint on the subject.

He didn't see his ID card as a threat to his freedom, he saw it like a membership card. You see an ID card as a tool of oppression, but he saw it as a shield against oppression. Proof to anyone who saw it, especially the government that he was a full citizen of his country and therefore entitled to all the rights and privileges it entails.

I'm not saying either viewpoint is right but it's an interesting outlook none the less.

Makes sense. If all men are not created equal and if to have your rights recognized you need to prove you are a number registered on the office of a nation-state then that sounds perfectly reasonable, it also means that a German without an ID card cannot prove he deserves those rights.

Sailor Steve · 11-21-06, 12:17 PM

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Originally Posted by Iceman

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Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The United States doesn't have a national ID card, but every state issues them. If you don't have a driver's license you can get a straight ID card. The good news is it's used when you need to prove who you are, and you don't have to carry it with you to identify yourself to the authorities. The cops sometimes think you do, but there have been several cases in which the courts have upheld citizens' rights to not have one.

I thought by 2008 we were supposed to swing them into action as well Sailor ?

Story... http://news.com.com/National+ID+card...3-5573414.html

666

What's trippy is the logic of having such technology and the advantages are mind boggling and a good sell to the people...tag your children with the chips and feel safer about them being kidnapped...put all the money on this system and put out of business..."Over Night" All organized crime ...except the biggest mob that is the governments....it really can solve alot of problems and that is what's so scary it's such a damn good sell.

I have a friend who fought the system. When he put his kids into school the administration kept telling him they HAD to have Social Security cards. He kept insisting they show him the specific law that said so. End result: his kids didn't get SS cards until they got jobs, because of course the government takes money from your paycheck for Social Security.

Ever since the "walking man" incident (a black man was stopped and questioned in the early '70s for jogging through Beverly Hills. When he had no ID they arrested him.) I've had a fair amount of confidence in the courts to uphold my right not to identify myself. A national drivers license doesn't worry me too much. A mandatory ID card could mean a new revolution.

STEED · 11-21-06, 12:33 PM

Looks like U.K. GP's are not in favour of there own N.H.S database.

GPs threaten to snub NHS database

Gizzmoe · 11-21-06, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TteFAboB

it also means that a German without an ID card cannot prove he deserves those rights.

True, but how is that different from the US or any other country? In Germany and many other countries you need an ID card for many things, in some other countries they use different methods (drivers license, social security card, ...). The basic principle is the same.

TteFAboB · 11-21-06, 03:24 PM

Yes but I was being ironic. You have rights not only when you're carrying the card but at all times. I think any German who looses his card can prove he deserves inalienable rights alright, as long as he didn't commit any transgression that necessarily must be met with their violation, he has those rights because he was born a human, even before being a German. Nation-states come and go. 2000 years into the future no recognizable "Germany" may exist in any form, yet, people may still have their rights respected, even if their law, their civilization, their world is very different from ours, if for all intents and purposes the effects are the same.

TarJak · 11-22-06, 02:53 AM

This is being dredged up in Australia again. In the 80's there was a fair amount of debate about the proposed Australia Card. Ultimately it was too hot a political potato for either party to handle and it got sunk.

The question I have is given the amount of information the govenrment already has about you and your activities, is adding the card really going to make much more difference? I'm not sure that the UK laws are like on Privacy, but there have been a number of prosecutions of civil servants who have misused their access to personal database and even in corporations there are fairly stringent privacy controls in place.

I'm not an apologist for adding the cards and to be honest I don't really like the idea of having them introduced so that they link up all your government data, if only because of the damage a lost/stolen/forged card could do to an individual.

ID theft we are told is a groing problem adding a card that gives the bearer access to all your personal details isn't really going to help control that threat and if anything increases the risk that incidences of identity theft will rise even more.

Kapitan_Phillips · 11-22-06, 03:15 AM

The focus with these ID cards is yet again wrong. The government seems to be focusing on the current population as a security risk, rather than all those who try to immigrate here.

Think about it. Who would present more of a security risk - a proper British Citizen who has gone through all the proper procedures and aquired a proper passport, visas and the like - or someone who has none of these things and has come here illegally?

STEED - we should set up our own party and take this country back from the cesspool it's fallen into.

11-21-06, 09:27 AM	#34
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	The case is this the RFID will be next after the ID card so if we the people sit back and say yes give me the card, this means the powers to be have already one there case for the RFID. I'm not saying the RFID will happen tomorrow or next year but the ID card will make it easy for those who want to push the RFID on to us. Are you willing to pay for the ID card any where up to £200 for the card? __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

11-21-06, 10:03 AM	#38
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	Just to give you a balanced information, not pro or anti. click the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

11-21-06, 12:33 PM	#41
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	Looks like U.K. GP's are not in favour of there own N.H.S database. GPs threaten to snub NHS database __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

11-21-06, 03:24 PM	#43
TteFAboB Admiral Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,247 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Yes but I was being ironic. You have rights not only when you're carrying the card but at all times. I think any German who looses his card can prove he deserves inalienable rights alright, as long as he didn't commit any transgression that necessarily must be met with their violation, he has those rights because he was born a human, even before being a German. Nation-states come and go. 2000 years into the future no recognizable "Germany" may exist in any form, yet, people may still have their rights respected, even if their law, their civilization, their world is very different from ours, if for all intents and purposes the effects are the same. __________________ "Tout ce qui est exagéré est insignifiant." ("All that is exaggerated is insignificant.") - Talleyrand

11-22-06, 02:53 AM	#44
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	This is being dredged up in Australia again. In the 80's there was a fair amount of debate about the proposed Australia Card. Ultimately it was too hot a political potato for either party to handle and it got sunk. The question I have is given the amount of information the govenrment already has about you and your activities, is adding the card really going to make much more difference? I'm not sure that the UK laws are like on Privacy, but there have been a number of prosecutions of civil servants who have misused their access to personal database and even in corporations there are fairly stringent privacy controls in place. I'm not an apologist for adding the cards and to be honest I don't really like the idea of having them introduced so that they link up all your government data, if only because of the damage a lost/stolen/forged card could do to an individual. ID theft we are told is a groing problem adding a card that gives the bearer access to all your personal details isn't really going to help control that threat and if anything increases the risk that incidences of identity theft will rise even more.

11-22-06, 03:15 AM	#45
Kapitan_Phillips Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Swansea Posts: 3,903 Downloads: 204 Uploads: 0	The focus with these ID cards is yet again wrong. The government seems to be focusing on the current population as a security risk, rather than all those who try to immigrate here. Think about it. Who would present more of a security risk - a proper British Citizen who has gone through all the proper procedures and aquired a proper passport, visas and the like - or someone who has none of these things and has come here illegally? STEED - we should set up our own party and take this country back from the cesspool it's fallen into.