Britain's frantic rush towards a fully fledged surveillance society

[Kapitan]

Spot on steed one of my guys got fined £50 last friday for being drunk and disorderly dispite the fact he was at work driving a lorry the only reason he got nicked was because he was argueeing with a woman and he stutters.

[TteFAboB]

Captain Nemo raised a very important point:

But information on us is already held on many government databases what difference is one more going to make?

If the government already knows so much and can identify you so easily, why take this one more step? Is there ever too much? Or not enough?

If the justification is to help fight crime ("unless you wish to hide something or do something criminal") with "police resources stretched as they are" how would this new super-card help with that if "they will have other things to contend with."? Even further "at the end of the day what is the likelyhood of being stopped for your ID card"? Seems like it would be completely useless or redundant.

It's common to think that the politicians must be taking a share from the card production. But if you really think about it, it's the wallet makers that want this thing pushed: you'll need one extra slot to store your card. If you have it, good for you, if not, time to buy a new wallet.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

As I said earlier unless you wish to hide something or do something criminal

Well Nemo answer this one.

So you will not object to a government spy camera in every room of your house, including your bedroom, linked back to a police monitoring station? Apparently a lot of crime goes on behind closed doors. Child abuse, criminals conspiring, thieves dividing up their loot, drug dealers etc. The police could clear up a lot of crime with these new powers. Surely if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear?"

This has more to do with the database This information will be stored onto a National Identity Register resulting in the creation of a National Identity Register Number. What gives this government the right to spy on you? We live in a democracy and the government is here to work for us not the other way round. As I have pointed at the whole system can and will be open to abuse.


Do you want the police knocking on your door and arrested you for something which you did not do? All because someone had used your information for there own purposes.


It's not far fetched at all it is possible and once you got your card what next the RFID to be implanted into your body? You can not tell me that is democracy that is slavery.

[joea]

Uggggh.

No good civilisation, must go back to forest.

(But folks like Blair et al would tag you anyway).

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The United States doesn't have a national ID card, but every state issues them. If you don't have a driver's license you can get a straight ID card. The good news is it's used when you need to prove who you are, and you don't have to carry it with you to identify yourself to the authorities. The cops sometimes think you do, but there have been several cases in which the courts have upheld citizens' rights to not have one.

I thought by 2008 we were supposed to swing them into action as well Sailor ?

Story... http://news.com.com/National+ID+card...3-5573414.html

666

What's trippy is the logic of having such technology and the advantages are mind boggling and a good sell to the people...tag your children with the chips and feel safer about them being kidnapped...put all the money on this system and put out of business..."Over Night" All organized crime ...except the biggest mob that is the governments....it really can solve alot of problems and that is what's so scary it's such a damn good sell.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

I have no problems with an ID card. In Israel, everyone carries them. No problem. I think the phobia against them is just that - a phobia.

RFID chips that can be used for tracking are a definite no-no, however.

I have a problem with it. To drive on a state owned public street, maybe, to walk the street, hell no! I want to live in freedom and when I am starting to have to do things for the state when I simply leave the house, then I no longer have that freedom, and I live in a state policed world. No other way to describe it. I carry my ID almost daily already, but I do not want to be forced to carry it!

-S

PS. THat is not a phobia. Its simply about freedom to live my life.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

I have a problem with it. To drive on a state owned public street, maybe, to walk the street, hell no! I want to live in freedom and when I am starting to have to do things for the state when I simply leave the house, then I no longer have that freedom, and I live in a state policed world. No other way to describe it. I carry my ID almost daily already, but I do not want to be forced to carry it!

-S

PS. THat is not a phobia. Its simply about freedom to live my life.

I hate to break the news to you but even with all the problems we've got here, neither my husband, children nor myself have undergone any ID checks, except at border crossings, the random and occassional (about 2 years ago last I recall) police secuirty check roadblock (where they actually ask you specifically for drivers license and car registration), etc. Generally, the same is true for everyone we know. That's not to say there aren't other privacy-related problems here but the ID card is irrelevant to those.

I really don't feel I've lost my freedom because I tote another plastic laminated card in my purse. Now, if I could clean out the other 10 kilo of irrelevant junk that's accumulated therein, I'd really be free!

I say this as a native born US citizen, where unkwown forces made me carry my Loehmann's card wherever I shopped.

[August]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

I have a problem with it. To drive on a state owned public street, maybe, to walk the street, hell no! I want to live in freedom and when I am starting to have to do things for the state when I simply leave the house, then I no longer have that freedom, and I live in a state policed world. No other way to describe it. I carry my ID almost daily already, but I do not want to be forced to carry it!

-S

PS. THat is not a phobia. Its simply about freedom to live my life.

I once had this discussion with a German dude on another forum and he had a very interesting viewpoint on the subject.

He didn't see his ID card as a threat to his freedom, he saw it like a membership card. You see an ID card as a tool of oppression, but he saw it as a shield against oppression. Proof to anyone who saw it, especially the government that he was a full citizen of his country and therefore entitled to all the rights and privileges it entails.

I'm not saying either viewpoint is right but it's an interesting outlook none the less.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by August

I once had this discussion with a German dude on another forum and he had a very interesting viewpoint on the subject.

He didn't see his ID card as a threat to his freedom, he saw it like a membership card. You see an ID card as a tool of oppression, but he saw it as a shield against oppression. Proof to anyone who saw it, especially the government that he was a full citizen of his country and therefore entitled to all the rights and privileges it entails.

I'm not saying either viewpoint is right but it's an interesting outlook none the less.

That's sort of the point I'm trying to make. Assuming an ID card with no computer readable data on or in it, the card itself is not what determines your freedom. It's the laws that do and those need not have anything to do with an ID card.

Again, in principle I agree that any electronic/magnetic cards that contain more than the very general info printed on the card or that can identify your movement should be protested against. But an ID card which is similar to a driver's license is only as harmful as the police powers granted by the state.

[Captain Nemo]

Originally Posted by STEED

Well Nemo answer this one.

This has more to do with the database This information will be stored onto a National Identity Register resulting in the creation of a National Identity Register Number. What gives this government the right to spy on you? We live in a democracy and the government is here to work for us not the other way round. As I have pointed at the whole system can and will be open to abuse.


Do you want the police knocking on your door and arrested you for something which you did not do? All because someone had used your information for there own purposes.


It's not far fetched at all it is possible and once you got your card what next the RFID to be implanted into your body? You can not tell me that is democracy that is slavery.

Are spy cameras and implanted electronic chips part of the ID card package then? Steed I think you are going over the top with the 1984 scenario. Identity theft is happening now without ID cards in operation, so I don't see that they would increase crime in this area in fact they might even have the opposite effect. What have we really to fear from a piece of plastic with details on it to prove who we are? The only people that would need to worry are those who shouldn't be here in the first place. As mentioned in earlier posts the ID card will show that you are a proud citizen of the UK and are entitled to the benefits that the country offers.

Nemo

[Godalmighty83]

Originally Posted by STEED

Why are so many people in England want the ID card I ask?

good job the majority are against id cards then isnt it.

[Kapitan]

This is just one more piece of plastic to be cloned by identity thiefs.

[Captain Nemo]

Originally Posted by Godalmighty83

good job the majority are against id cards then isnt it.

How do you know that?

Nemo

[jumpy]

I already have enough identification to prove who I am if required to, but I'll be damned if I have to show my 'papers' to some snotty little oik in a uniform in the middle of the street. The National Id card is a typical example of bad policy making, a red herring if you will, designed to show that Blair is being tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime. Realistically it will make sod all difference to the safety and security of the general public. What it will do is cost the taxpayer billions of pounds better spent elsewhere, not to mention the fact that this system (like all others of this type) is wide open to the same abuse the rest of these schemes suffer from.
In exactly the same way as a previous government banned the legal possession and use of handguns because of a couple of nutters lost their marbles, citing that banning all handguns would reduce gun crime etc. Well, the criminals still have guns and still shoot each other, the police and the general public, with an undaunted vigour.

The National Identity Card proposal is doomed to failure for exactly the same reasons which now mean that the UK Olympic pistol target shooting team cannot train on mainland UK. It is ill thought out and ill advised and is merely paying lip-service to some pie-in-the-sky political idealist, vote grabbing hack... all at the expense and inconvenience of law abiding folk like you and me.

Far better for the various departments (criminal and governmental and local authority eg benefit fraud etc) who's competence has been called into question when dealing with basic everyday operation and crime on all levels, be addressed and corrected with a little common sense instead of this blitz of inept legislation and PC focus groups which Labour traditionally are so keen on.
There is no 'magic bullet' to cure the social and cultural problems we have today, the sooner the politicos realise this the better. But you can sort of forgive them for wanting to be 'the one' to solve all of society's evils in a blaze of flashbulbs and glory. No doubt if I was a self-serving egomaniac I'd feel exactly the same.


/soap-box

[STEED]

Well Nemo answer this one.

So you will not object to a government spy camera in every room of your house, including your bedroom, linked back to a police monitoring station? Apparently a lot of crime goes on behind closed doors. Child abuse, criminals conspiring, thieves dividing up their loot, drug dealers etc. The police could clear up a lot of crime with these new powers. Surely if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear?"

Still waiting for an answer to above

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

Are spy cameras and implanted electronic chips part of the ID card package then?

Why dose this country have more spy cameras than any other country's?

The ID card will be a biometric card of course it will have a electronic chip in it.

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

Steed I think you are going over the top with the 1984 scenario.

As of Jan 1st 2006 the police can arrest you without due course reason.

As a suggestion see how long you can stand outside Parliament protesting before the police turn up, feel free to try it.

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

Identity theft is happening now without ID cards in operation, so I don't see that they would increase crime in this area in fact they might even have the opposite effect.

I'm not talking about crime in your area.

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

What have we really to fear from a piece of plastic with details on it to prove who we are?

It's about the database state set up by this government, have you forgotten they are here to work for you not the other way around.

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

The only people that would need to worry are those who shouldn't be here in the first place.

Here's the answer

Immigrants and asylum seekers are already subject to stringent ID checks and must have their fingerprints taken etc. Illegal immigrants often arrive with no ID whatsoever, having shredded their passports in an attempt to become faceless and backgroundless. A National ID Card will do precisely nothing to stop this problem. Many illegal immigrants knowingly face death to get to safer countries. Would ID cards stop people who are that desperate?

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

As mentioned in earlier posts the ID card will show that you are a proud citizen of the UK and are entitled to the benefits that the country offers.

Why should I be proud of this ID Card? Seems to me other forum members from the U.K. are also against this card.