New cartoon scandal brewing - danes does it again (MERGED)

Immacolata · 10-08-06, 01:21 PM

No what I am saying is that they do know already. IF they know what is good for them, they will ignore it. But they cannot.

They must show that they are good muslims and fight vehemently to protect its honour. Not because it matters to most, not even the muslims I believe, but because it is prestigious to be the upholder of propiety. So everyone tries to be the first to condemn these things with firebrand rhetorics.

So you see, if they were able to for once to just shrug and move on, I think the west would have won a small victory. Of course they won't, because that would be to admit defeat.

Godalmighty83 · 10-08-06, 02:06 PM

anti-muslim sentiment is growing in the UK as well, many people are getting fed up with the massive over-reactions from certain muslim groups.

there may be a war brewing a lot of people on both 'sides' are getting mighty annoyed.

Immacolata · 10-08-06, 02:19 PM

I think its not as much the overreaction as it is one is continously reminded of their ambiguos affinity. Are they democrats or muslims that want the sharia or caliphate? At least some muslims have figured out that they are democrats first, national citizens next then muslims. So what ever the great prophet has to say, he comes third when it conflicts with king or country.

Unfortunately they do not receive much media attention ,and a lot of hatred from the foaming-at-the-mouth radicals.

Skybird · 10-08-06, 02:56 PM

A true Muslim is Muslim first, citizen second - in a Western understanding. In Muslim understanding, there is only Ummah.

Every third British Muslim citizen wants the Sharia. I say that the vast majority of Muslims worldwide prefers caliphate to democracy - in congruency with Quran, Hadith, Muhammad's example, Islamic history.

Immacolata · 10-09-06, 01:19 AM

I think you mistake that for orthodox muslims. There is no one unifiedmuslimhood out there, already they had divergent paths of faith a few years after the prophets death. Otherwise shiites and sunnis wouldn't be at each other's jugulars in Iraq. So if they can have one schizm, lets help them get another. The good thing is that some of the brighter heads have figured out they can be just fine putting islam third in the rank. It is a hard fight but I think the war will be easier won with nylon stockings, coca cola and jeans rather than blood and iron.

The Avon Lady · 10-09-06, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Immacolata

I think you mistake that for orthodox muslims. There is no one unifiedmuslimhood out there, already they had divergent paths of faith a few years after the prophets death. Otherwise shiites and sunnis wouldn't be at each other's jugulars in Iraq.

Neither Shiite nor Sunni Islamic schools of jurisprudence differ much in their concepts of Jihad and Islamic global domination and the subjugation of infidels.

Quote:

So if they can have one schizm, lets help them get another. The good thing is that some of the brighter heads have figured out they can be just fine putting islam third in the rank.

I would not necessarily assume such people to be brighter. Many Muslims are ignorant of their own religion, same as most Jews and Christians are of theirs today.

You might say that ignorance is bliss. But what happens once they do learn? Do such "enlightened" Muslims then reject their religion altogether, live knowing the facts that they are mediocre sinning Muslims or become repentant and join the Uma?

Quote:

It is a hard fight but I think the war will be easier won with nylon stockings, coca cola and jeans rather than blood and iron.

Anyway, heads up!

Strychnine found in Danish reservoir.

Sounds like:

Hundreds of Iraqi police poisoned, officials say.

And is all this an answer to the call?

It's a different world.

Immacolata · 10-09-06, 03:04 PM

The strychnine was put into water supply by teenagers. So far they are not described as jihadists.

I think you have the same set-in-stone view on islam as Skybird has. There is only a Uma because people choose to join it. If they choose otherwise, like Naser Khader of the newly founded Democratic Muslims, you put democracy first, nationality second and islam third. He stated that on public tv several times, in newspapers and - of course- have received several death threats by deranged second generation muslim immigrants.

The breaking of orthodox islams stranglehold on people's mind will first subside when the clan family structures are broken. Today it is very costly to break with islam if your family has orthodox members. If you asked a well educated man in private, would he say yes to democracy and no to sharia he might answer yes, of course. Put a camera up his nose and have him say that in public. He will most likely not dare due to peer pressure. This also means that the power of the imams should be diminished. The danish priests do not concern themselves with politics in the media, nor should the imams. But someone, apparantly, decided that they are qualified to speak on behalf of muslims. Which I believe is the mistake, as Skybird have mentioned earlier. Or at least I think that was the gist of his long rants

I reiterate my sentiment from earlier debates. Islam is used as a political tool. Always has been. Is still. People choose or are forced to choose this particular way. To give them a real choise means to allow them to say no to orthodox islam without receiving death threats. Unfortunately that is the case right now.

It is the people that is the problem, not the religion. Once we thought the pope was almighty and the church dogma untouchable. But some stood up and hammered an eloquent if slightly long "FU!" on the church door of Wittenberg. See what happened. We patiently await a muslim theologist with enough cojones to do that.

And no, Skybird, before you launch into a 95 paragraph explanation of why islam cannot change, I disagree. Islam can change if the believers want it, no matter what the prophet said or did not say.

That doesn't mean I believe we should just sit down and let fickle muslims throw hissy fits all over the place everytime someone pokes fingers at Mohammed. Enough of that, no more groveling. We will not submit.

10-08-06, 01:21 PM	#1
Immacolata Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 798 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	No what I am saying is that they do know already. IF they know what is good for them, they will ignore it. But they cannot. They must show that they are good muslims and fight vehemently to protect its honour. Not because it matters to most, not even the muslims I believe, but because it is prestigious to be the upholder of propiety. So everyone tries to be the first to condemn these things with firebrand rhetorics. So you see, if they were able to for once to just shrug and move on, I think the west would have won a small victory. Of course they won't, because that would be to admit defeat. __________________ "The power of the executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious, and the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist." - W. Churchill

10-08-06, 02:06 PM	#2
Godalmighty83 Sonar Guy Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 398 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	anti-muslim sentiment is growing in the UK as well, many people are getting fed up with the massive over-reactions from certain muslim groups. there may be a war brewing a lot of people on both 'sides' are getting mighty annoyed. __________________ Were there monkeys? Some terrifying space monkeys maybe got loose?

10-08-06, 02:19 PM	#3
Immacolata Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 798 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	I think its not as much the overreaction as it is one is continously reminded of their ambiguos affinity. Are they democrats or muslims that want the sharia or caliphate? At least some muslims have figured out that they are democrats first, national citizens next then muslims. So what ever the great prophet has to say, he comes third when it conflicts with king or country. Unfortunately they do not receive much media attention ,and a lot of hatred from the foaming-at-the-mouth radicals. __________________ "The power of the executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious, and the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist." - W. Churchill

10-08-06, 02:56 PM	#4
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,705 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	A true Muslim is Muslim first, citizen second - in a Western understanding. In Muslim understanding, there is only Ummah. Every third British Muslim citizen wants the Sharia. I say that the vast majority of Muslims worldwide prefers caliphate to democracy - in congruency with Quran, Hadith, Muhammad's example, Islamic history. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-09-06, 01:19 AM	#5
Immacolata Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 798 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	I think you mistake that for orthodox muslims. There is no one unifiedmuslimhood out there, already they had divergent paths of faith a few years after the prophets death. Otherwise shiites and sunnis wouldn't be at each other's jugulars in Iraq. So if they can have one schizm, lets help them get another. The good thing is that some of the brighter heads have figured out they can be just fine putting islam third in the rank. It is a hard fight but I think the war will be easier won with nylon stockings, coca cola and jeans rather than blood and iron. __________________ "The power of the executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious, and the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist." - W. Churchill

10-09-06, 03:04 PM	#7
Immacolata Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 798 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	The strychnine was put into water supply by teenagers. So far they are not described as jihadists. I think you have the same set-in-stone view on islam as Skybird has. There is only a Uma because people choose to join it. If they choose otherwise, like Naser Khader of the newly founded Democratic Muslims, you put democracy first, nationality second and islam third. He stated that on public tv several times, in newspapers and - of course- have received several death threats by deranged second generation muslim immigrants. The breaking of orthodox islams stranglehold on people's mind will first subside when the clan family structures are broken. Today it is very costly to break with islam if your family has orthodox members. If you asked a well educated man in private, would he say yes to democracy and no to sharia he might answer yes, of course. Put a camera up his nose and have him say that in public. He will most likely not dare due to peer pressure. This also means that the power of the imams should be diminished. The danish priests do not concern themselves with politics in the media, nor should the imams. But someone, apparantly, decided that they are qualified to speak on behalf of muslims. Which I believe is the mistake, as Skybird have mentioned earlier. Or at least I think that was the gist of his long rants I reiterate my sentiment from earlier debates. Islam is used as a political tool. Always has been. Is still. People choose or are forced to choose this particular way. To give them a real choise means to allow them to say no to orthodox islam without receiving death threats. Unfortunately that is the case right now. It is the people that is the problem, not the religion. Once we thought the pope was almighty and the church dogma untouchable. But some stood up and hammered an eloquent if slightly long "FU!" on the church door of Wittenberg. See what happened. We patiently await a muslim theologist with enough cojones to do that. And no, Skybird, before you launch into a 95 paragraph explanation of why islam cannot change, I disagree. Islam can change if the believers want it, no matter what the prophet said or did not say. That doesn't mean I believe we should just sit down and let fickle muslims throw hissy fits all over the place everytime someone pokes fingers at Mohammed. Enough of that, no more groveling. We will not submit. __________________ "The power of the executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious, and the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist." - W. Churchill Last edited by Immacolata; 10-09-06 at 03:08 PM.