[REL] Trigger Maru Overhauled Update BH

[Bubblehead1980]

Hey guys, of all the great feedback, have not heard a whole lot about the night surface attacks now possible in TMO , esp with large convoys in 1944, getting inside the convoys and attacking on surface. Share your experiences etc. I am running a test soon, may make some changes if needed.

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Hey guys, of all the great feedback, have not heard a whole lot about the night surface attacks now possible in TMO , esp with large convoys in 1944, getting inside the convoys and attacking on surface. Share your experiences etc. I am running a test soon, may make some changes if needed.

we seem to be detected once we close to 5000 yds or so.
once we are detected, as you know, every ships starts to zig-zag and we become the target of the escorts.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

we seem to be detected once we close to 5000 yds or so.
once we are detected, as you know, every ships starts to zig-zag and we become the target of the escorts.

Hmm. Date? moonlight ? Fog? NO mods changing the visual sensors or sim.cfg settings ? Possible one of them has radar? never had them visually spot me that far out.

[Rhodes]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Hey guys, of all the great feedback, have not heard a whole lot about the night surface attacks now possible in TMO , esp with large convoys in 1944, getting inside the convoys and attacking on surface. Share your experiences etc. I am running a test soon, may make some changes if needed.

I am still in 43, late 43 - October. My patrol zone is area 11-B, near Formosa. I pick up a convoy by radar and went for it. Crystal clear sea, 0 wind, 0 waves (since I arrived near the patrol area), crescent moon.

3 rows convoy with 2 escorts, one in the rear, one in the front. Manage to get to 4000/3700 yards undetected.

But I had to end the game, so only after I pick up I can see if I can go even near.

By the way, deck awash tactic? Used in real life? In the game can be done and if so, will have any influence in the detection of the sub?

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Rhodes

I am still in 43, late 43 - October. My patrol zone is area 11-B, near Formosa. I pick up a convoy by radar and went for it. Crystal clear sea, 0 wind, 0 waves (since I arrived near the patrol area), crescent moon.

3 rows convoy with 2 escorts, one in the rear, one in the front. Manage to get to 4000/3700 yards undetected.

But I had to end the game, so only after I pick up I can see if I can go even near.

By the way, deck awash tactic? Used in real life? In the game can be done and if so, will have any influence in the detection of the sub?

Nice, so working it sounds like, let me know once you pick up the attack how it turns out.You are getting into the time period (late 43-1944) of primetime for the convoy battles, esp night surface attacks.


Decks awash, while used on occasion, was not used a lot of US subs in night surface attacks it seems, because it reduced the boats maneuverability on surface. US subs liked to hit the targets on surface at night, then if at all possible escape on surface to avoid being held down for hours and depth charged, while rest of ships escaped. Tactic was used more often when rescuing people from water, deploying rafts with troops, supplies, approaching shore to reduce visibility etc.German U boats liked to use the decks awash tactics more often in attacks if I recall.

While can use decks awash in the sim, it does not work as should for most part, select say 26 feet, boat takes too long to flood down and tends to "bounce" especially if have more than 1/3 speed. I did make a little mod where when hit the "radar depth" key, boat floods down to 26-27 feet(Depending on class of boat ), may include it in next release.

Overall, would not use tactic in combat unless must and not necessary to pull off night surface attacks given the changes in the TMO Update.

[Mad Mardigan]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Decks awash, tactic was used more often when rescuing people from water, deploying rafts with troops, supplies, approaching shore to reduce visibility etc.

I did make a little mod where when hit the "radar depth" key, boat floods down to 26-27 feet (Depending on class of boat), may include it in next release.

Overall, would not use tactic in combat unless must and not necessary to pull off night surface attacks given the changes in the TMO Update.

I'd say, definitely include that in the next release... since there are objectives missions of import, on rescues, agent/troop insert, supply drops, pickup missions, & having that ability to go decks awash... would be a nice thing to have handy.

Yeah, the U-boats did use a more decks awash approach, but... given the nature of the beast & the why's & where fore's for their using that tactic more so, than the U.S. counterparts did.... understandable, when they were literally getting their aft sides handed back to them, with an attrition rate of 3 of 4 not coming back... which climbed to those rates... the later 1/2 to 1/3 of the war.



M. M.

p.s. On the tactic's of night surfaced attacking... haven't really dove much into testing that capability, near as much as I'd like to or should. Still more used to the mind set of U-boat attacking... well... given the more push to U-boats with the entirety of the SH lineup. That & given 4's more.. versatile capability... to skipper an I class in the IJN (not entirely a complete set up, as yet... mind ya. ) to a T class sub skipper, in the Med.... to a soviet skipper... well... at any rate, testing I have had on that... was good... Know that on a merchie... was able to get within... 5-600 yards off their side, before I opened up... that was a solo by the way... & got close in, undetected. Of course... detected, after I opened up on them, from literal point blank range. Dark night, little to no fog, no rain... looked about to see the moon & wasn't one I could see in sight... Oh, & it wasn't stationary, it was chugging along at about... 4-6 knots... along the coast. Think I was around Formosa (Taiwan, nowadays, I believe...) either there.. or Hainan... somewhere in that general vicinity. Orders I had, was to scout out a port & await further orders, as I recall & was early on, like mid late Dec. of '41... maybe 1st week of Jan. '42. ported out of Manilla... which, got messaging that it had been abandoned & to return to Surabaya at patrols end.

1 question though... do the settings have to be so dark, as you can't even see details on the crewman, standing right there, practically on top of you... just curious... way it seems to Me, is like watching a light box puppet show, no details to the character... just a flat black cutout that you can tell is supposed to be a person, but that's it. That even includes the boat itself...as I said... just wondering about that.

Have been out in the country, away from city lights... & on a moonless night, it's dark, but after a bit... after the eyes adjust, can make out some details on things around about 6' from you... but much past that, details tend to get a bit... washed out, so that you can tell what something is by the general shape... but not see finer detail's to them.

Talking a country guy here... grew up in a rinky town, that if ya blinked, you'd miss it... it was that small.

That said, haven't really been out on the ocean, so no experience on how it'd be there... can just go on what I do know... for what it's worth.



M. M.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Mad Mardigan

I'd say, definitely include that in the next release... since there are objectives missions of import, on rescues, agent/troop insert, supply drops, pickup missions, & having that ability to go decks awash... would be a nice thing to have handy.

Yeah, the U-boats did use a more decks awash approach, but... given the nature of the beast & the why's & where fore's for their using that tactic more so, than the U.S. counterparts did.... understandable, when they were literally getting their aft sides handed back to them, with an attrition rate of 3 of 4 not coming back... which climbed to those rates... the later 1/2 to 1/3 of the war.



M. M.

p.s. On the tactic's of night surfaced attacking... haven't really dove much into testing that capability, near as much as I'd like to or should. Still more used to the mind set of U-boat attacking... well... given the more push to U-boats with the entirety of the SH lineup. That & given 4's more.. versatile capability... to skipper an I class in the IJN (not entirely a complete set up, as yet... mind ya. ) to a T class sub skipper, in the Med.... to a soviet skipper... well... at any rate, testing I have had on that... was good... Know that on a merchie... was able to get within... 5-600 yards off their side, before I opened up... that was a solo by the way... & got close in, undetected. Of course... detected, after I opened up on them, from literal point blank range. Dark night, little to no fog, no rain... looked about to see the moon & wasn't one I could see in sight... Oh, & it wasn't stationary, it was chugging along at abut... 4-6 knots... along the coast. Think I was around Formosa (Taiwan, nowadays, I believe...) either there.. or Hainan... somewhere in that general vicinity. Orders I had, was to scout out a port & await further orders, as I recall & was early on, like mid late Dec. of '41... maybe 1st week of Jan. '42. ported out of Manilla... which, got messaging that it had been abandoned & to return to Surabaya at patrols end.

1 question though... do the settings have to be so dark, as you can't even see details on the crewman, standing right there, practically on top of you... just curious... way it seems to Me, is like watching a light box puppet show, no details to the character... just a flat black cutout that you can tell is supposed to be a person, but that's it. That even includes the boat itself...as I said... just wondering about that.

Have been out in the country, away from city lights... & on a moonless night, it's dark, but after a bit... after the eyes adjust, can make out some details on things around about 6' from you... but much past that, details tend to get a bit... washed out, so that you can tell what something is by the general shape... but not see finer detail's to them.

Talking a country guy here... grew up in a rinky town, that if ya blinked, you'd miss it... it was that small.

That said, haven't really been out on the ocean, so no experience on how it'd be there... can just go on what I do know... for what it's worth.



M. M.

Well, as someone who who grew up on the ocean, boating sailing, deep sea trips etc, can testify it gets rather dark on open ocean with no light source, often can be difficult to see even other people on the boat when are pretty close to you, especially if wearing darker clothing (as watch crew would be) see their outline more than anything. WW II subs and ships were running blacked out, even on bridge no lights. Of course, moonlight changes visibility, fog level, position on earth, time of night etc.

I believe if the nights were any lighter in TMO Update would be back in situation where can't pull off the attacks and would be far too light for when out on the open ocean, in most cases, such as how stock etc are. A quick fix is to adjust the gamma, where it makes the sky appear light to player, easier to see things at night, but does not lighten the night and alter how the AI operates.

[Mad Mardigan]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Well, as someone who who grew up on the ocean, boating sailing, deep sea trips etc, can testify it gets rather dark on open ocean with no light source, often can be difficult to see even other people on the boat when are pretty close to you, especially if wearing darker clothing (as watch crew would be) see their outline more than anything. WW II subs and ships were running blacked out, even on bridge no lights. Of course, moonlight changes visibility, fog level, position on earth, time of night etc.

I believe if the nights were any lighter in TMO Update would be back in situation where can't pull off the attacks and would be far too light for when out on the open ocean, in most cases, such as how stock etc are. A quick fix is to adjust the gamma, where it makes the sky appear light to player, easier to see things at night, but does not lighten the night and alter how the AI operates.

Gotcha... as I mentioned... had never really been out on the waters... (meaning oceans...) for any length of time, even at night... so wouldn't be aware of that varied a difference as on land. What's that expression... ya learn something new, every day... even if ya don't realize ya did, sometimes.

Goes in hand with what My Granddad said... life, is a continuous learning experience... you never stop learning, except when you pass away & may not stop, even after you pass on... for all we know.

Hmm... haven't really messed about with the gamma... will see of testing/tweaking that... thanks. Always knew about the bright factor... adjusting the brightness or darkness, through the monitor settings... but, only knew of gamma but never really messed (adjusted/tweaked) with it.



M. M.

[Xboxman523]

Good news friends! The issue I've been having with CTD's when using the rec manual has been solved. S7strikeback has helped created a fix for an issue that was affecting both FOTRS and TMO. I believe it will be incorporated into the next version of this mod.

[fitzcarraldo]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Hey guys, of all the great feedback, have not heard a whole lot about the night surface attacks now possible in TMO , esp with large convoys in 1944, getting inside the convoys and attacking on surface. Share your experiences etc. I am running a test soon, may make some changes if needed.

We are not enough agressive...

Can you do a single mission with a convoy and in night? More easy to find than in campaign.

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by fitzcarraldo

We are not enough agressive...

Can you do a single mission with a convoy and in night? More easy to find than in campaign.

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo

I could do that after next patrol (currently on patrol), but are pretty easy to locate in the campaign. Fall 1943, per history, is when Japanese get their act together to some degree with convoys. The HI (Singapore-Imari, Imari-Singapore) convoys start up on regular basis. Convoy activity increases as time goes on.

June 1944-December 1944...Singapore-Japan routes,South China Sea and especially Luzon Straits is ideal place to find the large convoys can get inside the columns and take full advantage of night surface attack. In reality, this is when the tactic really came into its own. In the forthcoming update, will have AI wolfpack mates that will attack as well. Many convoys are "historic" convoys, which spawn just once...they arrive at historic date and times...for example Parche's legendary "Ramages Rampage" on 31 July 1944, can find that convoy, and many more. There are random convoys that spawn on a cycle as well in this time period. Traffic will slow down in October as the Singapore-Japan traffic shifts to the Indochina/China coast, but the TAMA and MATA( Tako-Manila, and Manila-Takao, Formosa) convoys continue running (as they did per history) until December 1944.

[Strykr]

I agree with Fitzcarraldo, A Convoy Training mission would be great.
I use the "Dick O'Kane Fleet Boat" mission, for practicing torpedo attacks and methods, and a night convoy scenario would be helpful for testing tactics.

Currently in campaign, I'll make a quick save when I detect a convoy, and replay it different ways.

I find I have pretty good luck with night attacks if I'm around 2000 yards.
Depending on weather conditions of course. I "Shoot and Scoot", so anything closer, and I dont have time to get out of visual range before torpedo impact.

The addition of Wolfpacks will be a GAMECHANGER.

Again, great job on your Modpack Bubblehead, and congrats on your Mod/Modder of the Year Award.

[Rhodes]

Thank you for the replies about deck awash.


The night convoy attack: I did some tests the closer I got with been detected was 1800 yards. This distance was in my second attack, port side.

My first attack I was starboard of the convoy, shoot the torpedos at 3500/3000 yards +/-. Did a u turn, shoot my aft tubes and escaped southeast.

Circumvent the convoy and decided to shoot my remaining torpedoes. This time I manage to get to 1800 yards above. Then one of the escorts that was returning to front of the ships, began to shoot flares, the ships began to zig zag.
I only hit with my type 14 torpedos, all my electric ones I missed... Still having a difficulty get the correct speed of the target.

But in the end, I got 4 ships, 2 tankers, so got the Navy Cross when got back to base!



I am also in favour of a night convoy attack mission for testing and do some crazy things to see the behaviour of the game.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Rhodes

Thank you for the replies about deck awash.


The night convoy attack: I did some tests the closer I got with been detected was 1800 yards. This distance was in my second attack, port side.

My first attack I was starboard of the convoy, shoot the torpedos at 3500/3000 yards +/-. Did a u turn, shoot my aft tubes and escaped southeast.

Circumvent the convoy and decided to shoot my remaining torpedoes. This time I manage to get to 1800 yards above. Then one of the escorts that was returning to front of the ships, began to shoot flares, the ships began to zig zag.
I only hit with my type 14 torpedos, all my electric ones I missed... Still having a difficulty get the correct speed of the target.

But in the end, I got 4 ships, 2 tankers, so got the Navy Cross when got back to base!



I am also in favour of a night convoy attack mission for testing and do some crazy things to see the behaviour of the game.

No problem.

Sounds like a solid attack, well done .

Sounds like speed was correct in TDC, thus the other hits. MK 18's can be more difficult to shoot, primarily due to low speed of 29 kts and shorter range of just 4000 yards. Key with MK 18 is fire them on a bearing so they always meet the target, never have to "chase it". Also, due to their lower speed, accurate bearing/AOB/ and speed, matter, as does point of aim.


Example: You're on the TBT and want to fired three MK 18 at target. Aim for middle of target, typically the stack, make sure to aim just ahead of the stack, if you aim at the stack, it will usually hit astern of the stack. Something I have noticed over time and primarily had to do with the low travel speed of MK 18, the brief delay between final firing bearing into TDC, gyros set and torpedo being launched.

Also, one reason need to get to 2000-2500 yards to fire MK 18 instead of 3500-3000, is 3500-3000 yards is a long ways for a slow torpedo to go after a moving target, and with its limited range, more prone to missing targets or if misses, less likely to find another by "accident", which is more common when shooting into the large convoys. This was one of my reasons for working to change the ability to pull off night surface attacks in TMO. Before the update, was pretty much impossible most of the time. In later part of war, MK 18 was most common torpedo US subs used, but because of the ranges had to fire at in later war, esp in TMO, it was impossible in many cases, especially on surface. Attacking submerged not always optional with all the shallow waters have to venture into in late 1944 and into 1945 just to find targets, need to get able to get within range.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Strykr

I agree with Fitzcarraldo, A Convoy Training mission would be great.
I use the "Dick O'Kane Fleet Boat" mission, for practicing torpedo attacks and methods, and a night convoy scenario would be helpful for testing tactics.

Currently in campaign, I'll make a quick save when I detect a convoy, and replay it different ways.

I find I have pretty good luck with night attacks if I'm around 2000 yards.
Depending on weather conditions of course. I "Shoot and Scoot", so anything closer, and I dont have time to get out of visual range before torpedo impact.

The addition of Wolfpacks will be a GAMECHANGER.

Again, great job on your Modpack Bubblehead, and congrats on your Mod/Modder of the Year Award.

Sounds like you are doing it correctly, good job. In reality typical firing range in night surface attack was 2000-2500 yards, so I tweaked things in the mod so could, in most cases, fired from 2000-2500 yards, make the turn away without always being spotted, and shredded by sniper like gunfire. Basically, your sub is difficult to visually spot on the surface, as subs actually were. Many variables involved, but sounds like have found the intended experience.

How I operate, to avoid showing broadsides and thus risking being spotted prior to torpedo impact, is after firing, I make sure have a little momentum and rudder already on about 5-10 degrees of direction intend to flee, so basically by time torpedoes hit, I am in the turn, then just before torpedo impact, I go ahead flank to push on through the turn and haul a**. Worst case (in most situations), I can dive if needed.


I agree, coordinated attack groups aka wolfpacks is a bit of a game changer. I am still tweaking some things but have some basics working pretty well in testing. Of course, due to limitations of game can't exactly operate and communicate as the actual packs did, but still brings the immersion and provides some assistance against the larger convoys etc.

Example of what I have so far.

Orders in July 1944 will state are to proceed to Luzon Straits as part of wolf pack (they will have, based on historical docs, the name of the pack, typically named as the pack CO, be it a Captain in the early packs of the most senior CO aboard one of the subs) . In some instances, will depart in company with other AI subs (as packs often did), some instances will just proceed to your assigned area.

For the coordinated attacks, the AI subs (which fire torpedoes) are placed to appear along the track of a specific convoy , appropriate radio traffic will appear ordering player sub to so and so position at x date and time. It is set up so in some cases player is first to attack, some cases, wll be second or third. This is typically how us wolfpacks operated, they took turns, attacked from opposite sides.

In the sim, plays out well when most escorts are distracted, trying to hunt/sink the other subs, player can move in and attack.

One I recently I had in testing is I was inside convoy of 18 ships in 1944, on the surface at night and set up on two large tankers in the center column(where the most important ships usually are located). Fired three MK 18 each, which for northbound tankers, is somewhat overkill since are most likely loaded with fuel, but never know, so fired three each. Anyways, they hit, two 10000 tankers in fireballs, fired stern tubes at a merchant in column astern, hit it. Now, was racing along, dodging spotlights and gunfire. Could see escorts rushing in towards me on radar and visually spotted their massive bow wakes due to speed. Of particular concern was a full fledged destroyer, they and most DE's have speed to overtake sub on surface, unlike most escorts.

Anyways a couple of minutes into the chase, a ship on the starboard exterior column blows up, could hear(gotta love EAX sound mod) and see the flash in the distance. The DD turned around to go after it, as did two other escorts, only one kept heading for my area. I spent a few minutes dodging other merchants spotlights and sporadic gunfire, the escort trying to locate me, but always behind, but finally seemed to gain a fix and was closing, occasionally firing his guns from 3000-4000 yards, one or two close splashes, but not too close. Then on the port side of convoy, boom another ship goes up, escorts head that way. I was near the rear of the convoy about to exit and a mid sized merchant presented easy set up for my last MK 18 in stern tubes( had more in reserve, but had fired other three, saved one in case needed it before had chance to reload) . Manned aft TBT, fired the torpedo from 2100 yards. Ship must have had ammo as cargo as it denigrated, which 4600 ton merchants typically don't do unless have volatile cargo. Of course this attracted a previously undetected escort , the "rear guard" but , but was able to pull away on surface after chase and dodging a few rounds.

I was in testing, so had the external and next previous cams on. I was abel to watch escorts counter attacks on the subs. Unfortunately, a oversight, omission, bug etc in SH 4 , likely because UBI was too lazy to really work in AI subs into SH 4, is other AI vessels see them, even when they are not visible above the surface. So the escorts get within range and "spot" them, they fire their guns first, instead of just dropping depth charges. However, they will get close enough and will drop depth charges. AI subs don't change depths, so there is no "going deep" to evade. I have them timed and set to hit their last waypoint after attacking, so they will delete on last waypoint, which simulates them going deep and running silent. This also makes daytime submerged pack attacks not really possible as they are spotted at some distance.

Surfaced US AI subs, I am on the fence to include them in attacks, because they have tendency to get into gunfights with escorts lol. Guess could remove their deck guns, but then looks silly. Still working that part out.


Totals for attack in testing.

My boat (GATO)- Two 10000 ton tankers, one 4500 ton merchant.

AI Sub #1 - One merchant (unknown tonnage)


AI sub#2 One merchant (unknown tonnage)


Now, these results are not typical, AI subs are usually not most accurate shots lol, be it enemy or friendly.