About merchant ship wartime colours

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Strangely, HMS Phidias is not listed in OB.330 on Arnold Hague database : http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/ob2/index.html

Sorry for hijacking this thread...

It is listed in your site under ship search in OB 94 FEB1940 & OB 170 Jun 1940. Your Hague site shows 42 vessels in OB 330??!! The commodore only drew 39 vessels !!?? and certainly knew what was in his convoy!: Thus, the Hague data base is not Primary Source material! We'll rely on the Commodore!

[gap]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Strangely, HMS Phidias is not listed in OB.330 on Arnold Hague database : http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/ob2/index.html

Obviously an oversight since the same database lists Phidias among the losses of Convoy OB.330:

http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/ob/index...ses.htm~obmain

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Sorry for hijacking this thread...

You are on topic Mister_M, OB.330 is one of the convoys "in color" we are discussing, and SS Phidias is among the ships skecthed by Commodore Rogers as part of that convoy

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

It is listed in your site under ship search in OB 94 FEB1940 & OB 170 Jun 1940. Your Hague site shows 42 vessels in OB 330??!! The commodore only drew 39 vessels !!?? and certainly knew what was in his convoy!: Thus, the Hague data base is not Primary Source material! We'll rely on the Commodore!

Maybe the Hague dtabase includes enscorts in the count?

EDIT: no, I just checked that, it doesn't

Originally Posted by Mister_M

This confirms my idea that, in war time, it was not so easy to find the exact paint color as required by "official" rules... :

In part, yes.

Indeed time factors and paint availability played a big role. Many ships were sunk before they could be repainted, and there was no colour omogenity among the ones which eventually were repainted. You were right on that, but you had also speculated that old ships might have been not worth the extra paint, and this is the point that I and kapuhy disagreed on

Originally Posted by U-190

I think. that I should try to draw something for ships using a color table courtesy of our amigos.

Good idea, but please read my final notes at post #30

[GrenSo]

Here are some - in German - regualations about interiors of ships and submarine.

From the General Regulations No. 31, March 1940 edition, regulation for applying paint to ships and vehicles of the Kriegsmarine D. Paints for submarines: http://www.u-boote-online.de/dieboot...aerz_1940.html

From the General Regulations No. 31, July 1944 edition, regulation for the application of paint on ships and vehicles of the Kriegsmarine D. Paints for submarines: http://www.u-boote-online.de/dieboot...juli_1944.html

[gap]

Originally Posted by GrenSo

Here are some - in German - regualations about interiors of ships and submarine.


From the General Regulations No. 31, March 1940 edition, regulation for applying paint to ships and vehicles of the Kriegsmarine D. Paints for submarines: http://www.u-boote-online.de/dieboot...aerz_1940.html


From the General Regulations No. 31, July 1944 edition, regulation for the application of paint on ships and vehicles of the Kriegsmarine D. Paints for submarines: http://www.u-boote-online.de/dieboot...juli_1944.html

Oh thank you GrenSo, that's another nice contribution, I only wish I knew a bit of German

BTW: do you happen to know if there was any special colour regulation which applied to German merchant ships non-commissioned in the KriegsMarine? I know most of them were either seized in enemy ports, confiscated in neutral ports or blocked in friendly ports, but a number of them saw active service either as coastal shipping or as blockade runners, and I wonder which colours might be more realistic for them.

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

It is listed in your site under ship search in OB 94 FEB1940 & OB 170 Jun 1940. Your Hague site shows 42 vessels in OB 330??!! The commodore only drew 39 vessels !!?? and certainly knew what was in his convoy!: Thus, the Hague data base is not Primary Source material! We'll rely on the Commodore!

PHIDIAS is not in the list and this is obviously an error.

The list has 4 more extra ships (all British) :
- CITY OF BARCELONA
- KING EDWARD
- STANLAKE
- TORTUGUERO

There are also different spellings (drawing/database) :

- BORGHOLM / BORNHOLM
- PRINCESS MARIA PIA / PRINSES MARIA-PIA
- BANGKALIKAT / MANGKALIHAT
- LANGLETARN / LANGLEETARN

Who's right, who's wrong ?

Originally Posted by gap

but you had also speculated that old ships might have been not worth the extra paint, and this is the point that I and kapuhy disagreed on

I'm not sure that new paint would camouflage them better. They are smaller than Liberty ships for example, and they emit black smoke, which instantly nullifies the effect of camouflage (against sea spotters). But it was certainly useful to camouflage them from air spotters, with dull paint on the deck and upper surfaces...

Also :

Originally Posted by http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=152218

"merchant ships were scattered all over the world and of course were far too busy to keep in dock unless completely necessary "

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by gap

BTW: do you happen to know if there was any special colour regulation which applied to German merchant ships non-commissioned in the KriegsMarine? I know most of them were either seized in enemy ports, confiscated in neutral ports or blocked in friendly ports, but a number of them saw active service either as coastal shipping or as blockade runners, and I wonder which colours might be more realistic for them.

Probably same as for the allied size : hide all shiny and saturated colors with grey paint. And perhaps sometimes a camo pattern... Just speculating...

[Mister_M]

Here is my analysis of the commodore's (Hugh Hext Rogers) drawing of convoy OB.330 ships (assuming that colors are accurate) :

1. Ships with their original colors : hulls are black (sometimes dark grey), and upper structures are white, light yellow, buff or brown, funnels have different colors (orange, blue, black). MANAQUI is plain dark grey (maybe a repaint ?). Many of them are British (so "rules" are not very respected...).

 

2. Ships with hull (probably) repainted in grey : most of ships are tankers, it's a light grey paint.

 

3. Ships with superstructures (probably) repainted in grey : the hull remains very dark (black). HEINA superstructures are perhaps actually white...

 

4. Ships in plain grey (probably a war repaint) : note that there are different shades of grey from ship to ship...

 

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

By the way: did you manage solving the problem of LOD models not matching the color of main models (i.e. configurable textures not applying to them)?

Has anyone checked if two ships sharing the same 3D model can be rendered at the same time with two different textures if one of them is set as a "proxy clone" with its own texture?

Both issues might be a major obstacle to having more ship color variety in game

Unfortunately, the answer is "no" on both questions.

As for LOD problem, only workarounds for it that I know of are:

1) disable/delete LOD file forcing game to render main model at all distances.
2) set LOD switching distance to far enough and make color variations similar enough that player would not notice color switch at LOD distance.

As for second question - I did a test with one of my coasters, created a clone and set it to use another texture, then put both ships (original and clone) together in one scene. Both showed up with the same texture set. This might warrant another test though since I did it just once and might simply have made some error in configuration.

[gap]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

There are also different spellings (drawing/database) :

- BORGHOLM / BORNHOLM
- PRINCESS MARIA PIA / PRINSES MARIA-PIA
- BANGKALIKAT / MANGKALIHAT
- LANGLETARN / LANGLEETARN

Who's right, who's wrong ?

That's easy to discover:

https://southampton.spydus.co.uk/cgi...GTRN/WPAC/HOME

Enter ship's name in the search field and check the results. If no record is displayed, the spelling is probably wrong

Originally Posted by Mister_M

I'm not sure that new paint would camouflage them better. They are smaller than Liberty ships for example, and they emit black smoke, which instantly nullifies the effect of camouflage (against sea spotters). But it was certainly useful to camouflage them from air spotters, with dull paint on the deck and upper surfaces...

You may be right or wrong, but I don't think this is the actual point. Whether camouflages were effective or not, they were used, this is a fact, and we are trying to discover which ones were used and when

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Here is my analysis of the commodore's (Hugh Hext Rogers) drawing of convoy OB.330 ships (assuming that colors are accurate)...

Oh, that's a cool analysis, well done!

I am preparing a similar analysis for the other convoy whose sketch we have available (SL.60). I will get it finished tomorrow.

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Unfortunately, the answer is "no" on both questions.

As for LOD problem, only workarounds for it that I know of are:

1) disable/delete LOD file forcing game to render main model at all distances.
2) set LOD switching distance to far enough and make color variations similar enough that player would not notice color switch at LOD distance.

As for second question - I did a test with one of my coasters, created a clone and set it to use another texture, then put both ships (original and clone) together in one scene. Both showed up with the same texture set. This might warrant another test though since I did it just once and might simply have made some error in configuration.

Okay, talking about proxy clones a trick that comes to me mind is placing secondary textures directly in clone's folder rather than in the folder of the main unit. It probably won't work, but it is worth an attempt anyway

[U-190]

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by gap

That's easy to discover:

https://southampton.spydus.co.uk/cgi...GTRN/WPAC/HOME

Enter ship's name in the search field and check the results. If no record is displayed, the spelling is probably wrong

What's that ?

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

Okay, talking about proxy clones a trick that comes to me mind is placing secondary textures directly in clone's folder rather than in the folder of the main unit. It probably won't work, but it is worth an attempt anyway

Well, just tested. Short version, didn't work. Long version:

I created a proxy clone unit with its own texture files, but sharing gr2 model with original, and put it right next to original. Results:
- if original doesn't have texture specified in its roster file but clone does, both ships assume clone's texture
- if both ships have texture specified in roster files, they both assume original's texture
- it neither has texture specified in roester file, same as above - both assume original's texture.

So whatever is in roster file takes priority over texture specified in gr2 file, but anyway game seems to only check once per gr2 file and settle for one texture for all units using this model. Which is a bummer.

Now, someone maybe should check this in campaign as well, since in single missions there's some weird things going with textures anyway (like ships having winter decals even if scenario takes place in June near equator).

[gap]

Thomas Holt / J. Holt & Co, Liverpool.................................................. ..
Nela / Royal Mail Lines, London.................................................. ..........
Silvercedar / Silver Line, London.................................................. ........
Clan Cameron / The Clan Line Steamers, Glasgow...................................
Cefn-y-Bryn / Cook Shipping Co. - Ambrose, Davies & Matthews, London... ?
Pontypridd / Pontypridd Steamship Co. - Morel Ltd, London......................
Nebraska / Royal Mail Lines, London.................................................. ...
Harmatris / Willis Steamship Co - J. & C. Harrison, London.......................
Telesfora De Larrinaga / Larrinaga Steamship Co, Liverpool......................
British Genius / British Tanker Co, London.............................................
City of Shanghai / Ellerman's Hall Line (Sun Shipping Co.), Liverpool.........
Algenib / N.V Van Nievelt, Goudriaan & Co. Stoomvaart Mij, Rotterdam......
Birchbank / Bank Line - Andrew Weir & Co, London.................................
Pearlmoor / Moor Line - Runciman Shipping Co, Newcastle-upon-Tyne........
Tribesman / Charente Steamship Co - T. & J. Harrison, Liverpool...............

[gap]

Haughton Hall / Charles G. Dunn Shipping Co, Liverpool..........................
Thalatta / Wilh. Wilhelmsen, Tønsberg ..................................................
Dagrun / A/S Ocean - John P. Pedersen & Son, Oslo................................
City of Guildford / Ellerman's Hall Line (Sun Shipping Co.), Liverpool.........
Dumfries / B.J. Sutherland & Co, Newcastle-upon-Tyne............................
Suecia / Rederi A/B Nordstjernan - A.A. Johnson, Stockholm....................
Randfontein / Vereenigde Nederlansche Scheepvaart Mij, Den Haag..........
Halizones / British & S. American St. Nav. Co. - Houston Line, Liverpool.....
Congonian / United Africa Co, London.................................................. . ?
Cape Race / Lyle Shipping Co, Glasgow..................................................
Statira / Chellew Steamship Management Co - F.C. Perman, London..........
Laplace / Lamport & Holt Line, Liverpool................................................
Serbino / Ellerman's Hall Line (Sun Shipping Co.), Liverpool.....................
Ramon de Larrinaga / Larrinaga Steamship Co, Liverpool.........................
Lima / Rederi A/B Nordstjernan - A.A. Johnson, Stockholm.......................

[gap]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

What's that ?

Probably the most complete internet archive of Lloyd's Register records. Not all the years were digitalized, but WWII period is covered.

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Well, just tested. Short version, didn't work.

Yes, that's indeed a bummer. I start wondering if he same problem affects configurable equipments